Deuce ´n ´half ID

[Jan Mostek]

Hi guys,
One Czech vehicles enthusiast sent me the picture below asking me if I knew something about the GMC trucks used by the Czech units in allied forces. For me it was the first time when I saw the deuce´n´half with the CS marking. But is it really GMC CCKW, or isn´t it Studebaker? Is it possible to find more details about teh L number? I know it is not very well readable, my best guess is L1278797, but could be wrong and could not be original Czech vehicle as well as Czechs were know that put into service all wrecks they found abandoned along the roads. Any thoughts or ideas?

Happy searching, Jan.

[Jan Mostek]

I have one additional information, the picture was taken 28. Oct. 1943 in UK, parade of Czechoslovak Armored Brigade.

[cliff]

Looking at the rear view in the photo I am more likely to say it is a GMC-CCKW for sure. As the Polish units were issued with them it stands to reason that the other Allied units within the British Forces had them as well.

cheers
Cliff

[Jan Mostek]

Hi Cliff, Greetings to the other side of the Globe :-))

You could be right. I had my doubts because up to now I have not seen any CCKW in service with the Czech units.

Note the circualr openings in the tailgate, if I am not mistaken it is not original CCKW feature, to me it seems to be very British. Any comments?

Cheers, Jan.

[cliff]

No the holes are not an original CCKW feature and I first thought they were foot holes to aid personnel getting into the rear but if you notice where they are placed they would allow the tail lights to show through to the vehicle behind when the tailgate was in the lowered position. Handy if you had a long load and had to travel with the tailgate down.

This is the first time I have really seen this type of cutout. Mind you it could well be I just wrote them off as foot steps rather then the showing of the lights with the tailgate down.

Cheers
Cliff

[Jan Mostek]

Concerning the cutout purpose, I am sure you got it, the reason is obvious. It could be found on many British trucks (pardon me, lorries). I would be interested if it is possible to identify the truck type according to the L-number. My being a scale model enthusiast, I would consider it interesting theme for some future modelling project, but even if it is GMC CCKW, there are still variants, 353 or 352, canvas or sheet metal cab, w/ winch or w/o winch, w/ gun mount or w/o gun mount etc. I would appreciate any thought, ideas or comments.

Happy searching, Jan.

Hi guys,

It's not a CCKW going by the rear bumperetts,looks more like a Studebaker to me.

[Bill Murray]

We are getting a bit into the exotic here, but anyway here is a bad photo of the rear of a Studebaker from autogallery.ru which seems to show that the circles were once filled with some sort of rear lighting.
Bill

[jim sewell]

This is the rear end of a GMC CCKW.
Notice the length of the bumperettes .

[jim sewell]

This is the rear veiw of a Studebaker

[Jan Mostek]

Hello Jim and all other guys,

Thank you very much for your opinions. It seems to me that Jim proofed that the vehicle was a Studebaker, his two pictures are clear. Anyway, is there any chance to identify the vehicle according to the L-number (could be L1278797, but I am not sure)? It could help to identify what was the cab style, winch, possibly also MG ring mount etc. Anyway, thanks a lot once again for you comments,

Happy searching, Jan

[Bill Murray]

Hi Janne:

I do not want to burst your bubble, but I think we are going to end up declaring this vehicle a GMC of some sort, possibly with some field modifications.

To be sure, Studebaker and even International Harvester 2 1/2 tonners were supplied to the Soviet Union from late 1942 on.

The date you give for the photo would not seem to fit a Studebaker for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I doubt a Studebaker would have found it's way from Russia to the UK that quickly and secondly, the photo is of the "Free Czechs" for lack of a better term and not Czechs who fought later for the Allies or the Germans using Russian Lend Lease equipment

As always, I could be wrong and am happy to see other comments. Actually, I am wrong rather often but in the good cause of solving hard questions I consider it good fun.
Bill

[jim sewell]

We know that Studebakers were produced exclusively for l/lease which would include Great Britain .
Perhaps the vehicle in question was l/lease and passed on to an ally and may also have been a 6x4 version which were used for transporting supplies and troops in the rear areas.
The nature of it,s work may have involved having the tail gate down hence the holes for the tail lights .

I realise there is a lot of maybe's in the above but there are questions which may not have an answer with out more evidence .
We do know that the truck has timken tandem drive to the rear wheels and a std steel body fitted to a number of makes in that era .
Regards
Jim S.

[Lang]

What about the diffs? Split diffs and short bumpers sure look like Studebaker.

Lang

[Jan Mostek]

Hi Guys, it is nice dsicussion, isn´t it. When I saw the picture yb the first time, presented as a GMC, I had a feeeling that there something wrong. Than I came to the two points, one being the holes in tailgate and the second were teh short bumperetes which did not "fit into my eye". I however have not mentioned it to avoid the influence on possible comments. You guys in fact came to the same results. The holes in teh tailgate, it could be a field modification, teh purpose is clear. Concerning the bumperetes, it really looks like it would be Studebaker.
Unfortunately, I was olways more interested in technical aspects rather than historical (or time, let us say) consequencies, so I have absolutely no idea about in which time and quantity the vehicles were delivered to which "customer". Anyway, teh unit is (probably) Czech Armored Brigade, in the time of this parade located in UK. Almost all other vehicles they used, excl. Jeep and Stuart tanks, were made in UK or Canada. I have seen also some 1938 Chevy when the unit was in Africa. But neither GMCs nor Studebakers. All Studebakers Czech used came from the Eastern Front where Czech units weer part of the Red Army. But still, does anybody any clue concernning the L- number? Is there any list of numbers dedicated to different units?

Happy searching, Jan.
By the way, if some of you guys happen to go to Prague, let me know, there is always "something" to discuss

[cliff]

Originally posted by Lang
What about the diffs? Split diffs and short bumpers sure look like Studebaker.

Lang

Split diffs were a feature on a lot of GMC-CCKW's as well Lang but the short bumpers do look like the Studebaker.

I have photos of Polish units using GMC-CCKW 352's and 253's as well as GMC-CCW 6X4 trucks as well and this is why I thought it more likely to be a GMC. But as Bill said there are several vehicles of this era with the same body, diff's etc and without a shot of even part of the cab it may well be never definately identified.

Cheers
Cliff

[Lang]

Jim,

Studebakers were not just for Lend-Lease. The US used them on the Alaska highway and in the Aleutians and they were a major vehicle on the Stillwell Road in Burma.

There are lots of photos around of both areas.

lang

[Bill Murray]

Just to piss everyone off, look at my lousy post from the Russian site and it looks to me like that Stude has the longer bumpers.

I think we also need to consider the timelines here. That some Studes were present in Alaska and Northern Canada and Burma is without question but why would such a vehicle end up in the UK serving with Czech Forces in 1943.

To me, I think Karmen's favorite smilie is appropriate. :dh:

Bill

There are several clear pictures(both colour and BW) showing Studebaker 6+4's in use during 42-45 with the US Eighth Air Force in the UK.

[Jan Mostek]

I do not have deep knowledge of the time consequencies concerning the truck production and Lend Lease deliveries to UK, so I am not able to argue with above mentioned. But here is a picture from Studebaker manual. The short bumperetes are clear. I can not imagine the reason why the poor mechanic or whoever else would change the bumperetes on GMC for those from Studebaker. If it got damaged they would simply remove it (if the rest of the frame would be OK). I believe the simplest explanation use to be the right one so my guess is the vehicle is Studebaker. But I would be much obliged to any comments concerning the census number.
And a small note at the end, the picutre from the russian web Autogallery which Bill is speaking about, is not the authentic one, it is picutre of restored vehicle, so although it has long bumperetes it does not mean that it used to be original feature.

[Lang]

I think they are trying to confuse us. I have been through my 3 books on the Studebaker - Ord Supply Catalog, Workshop Manual, and Pats Manual. All have detailed diagrams of both the wood and steel body but NO TAILGATE. This is carried on in Jan's picture above which also seems to be out of a Studebaker manual.

All the bodies shown in all the manuals also are flat along the bottom of the rear with the lights and the tool box sticking down. The GMC style "dressing plate" with the tapered ends with lights and toolbox fitted in appears nowhere but in field photos.

Lang

[Lang]

Forgot to comment on Jan's photo which shows the "dressing Plate" on the rear. My latest manual without the plate is dated May 44 but they may have used old photos. Jan's is probably a late date manual. Maybe there were many different body manufacturers?

Lang

[Jan Mostek]

Only a short note to Lang´s comments. I do not have the complete manual on Studebaker, only a few pages of xerox copies. I guess it is a manual concenring the assembly of CKD-packed vehicle.

Cheers, Jan

[Jan Mostek]

By chance I found another interesting picture. Is it a Studebaker or not? And what kind would be the chassis then?

Happy searching, Jan

[Hendrik van Oorspronk]

Hello,

What year is the picture, cab should be Studebaker, cargobed looks Civilian orGerman or Russian

Hendrik

[Jan Mostek]

Hello Hendrik,
I have no idea about the year, but I guess the picture was taken in 50s or 60s years. I have found also one more picture of the same vehicle. According to the bilingual (russian and some latvian or lithuanian?) advertising sign on the shop it would be some Baltic republic of USSR. Concerning the vehicle, the second picture shows it is 4x2. Because the rear body seems to be Russian, as you mentioned, my guess is the original vehicle is GAZ-51, which would correspons also with the rear split differentioal housing visible. And as for the Stude cab, the reason could have been that the driver ended up, after drinking too much of Vodka, in the forest and needed some substitution for the damaged one

Happy searching, Jan

[Hendrik van Oorspronk]

Hello Jan,

It is also possible that a 6x4 Studebaker is converted to 4x2, after wwII this was often done in the Netherlands to spare tires ect.so why not else in Europe

Hendrik

[Hendrik van Oorspronk]

Having looked better at the picyure, it looks like you can see the mounting for the pillow block on the rear axle this would mean they used the front rear axle ot the stude.

Hendrik

[Jan Mostek]

Well, Hendrik, you could be right - the rear axle really looks like taken over from three-axle truck. Also the Stude could have been 6x4 version which would correspond with the visible non-driven axle. And if you take into consideration the lack of original spare parts (no more any lend-lease supplies during Cold War), this explanation seems to be the msot probable one.
By the way, the Sterling is really a BIG TRUCK, very nice

Happy searching, Jan.

[Bill Murray]

Hi Jan & Hendrick:
Those photos are both from Estonia post war.
I cannot find the thread anymore, cannot even remember the Forum it was on but I am quite sure that in a discussion of these two photos, the 6X4 to 4X2 theory is the one that was decided on.
Reasonable cargo capacity, better fuel consumption (less dry weight), less complexity and less maintenance.
And, of course you gained 4 tyres and 2 wheels. an axle and other spare parts!!!
Bill