23rd Field Regiment, RCA, 83rd Artillery Division

[Cheryl England]

My father, Eric England, was a Sgt. in the 23rd Field Regiment, 83rd Battalion RCA. I just got his war records from Ottawa and in going through them, and in reading the memoir by Laurence Smith called The History of the 23rd Field Regiment (SP) some
questions have arisen, that I hope someone will be able to assist me with. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated, as I'm compiling a history of his time during the war for my family. Here goes........

1) abbreviations - I've tried several websites but can't find the definitions for these:
BSM, RCCS, ACPO, BC, CRA, OR, CMO, CIB, GPOPA, NDHQ, MT, NAAFI, WAAF, IG, AGRA - - can anyone help?

2) Eric was in the Reserves in Toronto in 1940 - 41 and he enlisted in 1942, with the 31st Field Battery RCA, in Toronto, but
then he ended up in the 83rd Battery, (23 Field Regiment SP)which was mainly from the Hamilton, Brantford & St. Catherines area - does anyone know whether a person would be moved from the 31st to the 83rd...don't know why he didn't stay with the 31st??

3) In Eric's military record it said he was a "signaller" (he took a signals course in Barriefield, Ont.). Does anyone know what a "signaller" is or does???

4) Also in Eric's record it said he drove a motorcycle for 16 months - again does anyone know whether this would be part of a "signallers" role???

5) Does anyone know what model/make of motorcycles would have been driven during WW2 by the Canadians. I heard it
was a Triumph, but not sure.

5) Is a "battery" the same thing as a "battalion"

6) In Eric's war documents it says "83 Tr Art Div". I'm assuming
that "Art" means Artillery and "Div" means Division, but what does
"Tr" stand for..does anyone know?

7) If anyone has any info on the 83rd battery or 23rd Field Regiment, and this is a stretch, but if there's any Vets. that
knew my dad - I would love to hear from you.
Many thanks for any assistance.

Hurrah for you Cheryl, welcome to the forum from another woman who joined here looking for information about a relative who served in WW2. The people in here are amazing and I'm sure you'll get a lot of your questions, and then some, answered.

I love that you're doing this for the family ... me too for mine

Karmen.

[John McGillivray]

BSM = Battery Sergeant Major

ACPO = Assistant Command Post Officer

BC = Battery Commander

CRA = Commander Royal Artillery (the artillery commander at the divisional level)

OR = Orderly Room (or Other Ranks depending on the context)

CMO = Counter Mortar Office

GPO = Gun Position officer - PA = Personal Assistant

NDHQ = National Defence Headquarters

MT = Motor Transport

AGRA = Army Group Royal Artillery

RCCS = Royal Canadian Corps of Signals

NAAFI = Navy Army and Air Force Institute

IG = Instrustor Gunnery

CIB = Canadian Infantry Brigade (i.e. 10CIB)

WAAF = Womens Auxiliary Air Force

2) The 23rd Fd Regt. consisted of the 31st, 36th and 83rd Btys. The Regiment would move people around to wherever they are needed so there is nothing unusual about this.

3) A signaller is a radio operator. It is one of the most important positions in an artillery Regiment. All of the Command and control depends on good signals.

[RHClarke]

Originally posted by Cheryl England

(2) does anyone know whether a person would be moved from the 31st to the 83rd...don't know why he didn't stay with the 31st??

3) In Eric's military record it said he was a "signaller" (he took a signals course in Barriefield, Ont.). Does anyone know what a "signaller" is or does???

4) Also in Eric's record it said he drove a motorcycle for 16 months - again does anyone know whether this would be part of a "signallers" role???

5) Does anyone know what model/make of motorcycles would have been driven during WW2 by the Canadians. I heard it
was a Triumph, but not sure.

5) Is a "battery" the same thing as a "battalion"

6) In Eric's war documents it says "83 Tr Art Div". I'm assuming
that "Art" means Artillery and "Div" means Division, but what does
"Tr" stand for..does anyone know?

7) If anyone has any info on the 83rd battery or 23rd Field Regiment, and this is a stretch, but if there's any Vets. that
knew my dad - I would love to hear from you.
Many thanks for any assistance.

Cheryl,

(2) The reasons for postings between units are many, from personal preferences (finding out a buddy was in another unit...) to administrative purposes (special skills required, disclipinary reasons etc...).

(3) As previously explained, artillery units absolutely require communication between the observer and the gun position in order to properly (and safely) direct artillery fire.

(4) A lot of signallers were also awarded the duty of Dispatch Riders (DR) or Special Dispatch Service (SDS) and motorcycles were a cheap, quick and effective means of passing orders and instructions, or to jack up a unit that had not yet run its communications lines to the next higher command post. SDS and DR were some of the favourite targets for snipers, so the job was quite dangerous and required really good navigation skills.

(5) The motorcycle experts in this and other forums can answer this question.

(5a) A battery was a sub-unit of an artillery regiment. A battery consists of a number of troops and each troop consists of a number of guns (depending upon the unit type). A battalion may be equivalent to regiment or a regiment may contain a number of battalions (i.e. The Royal Canadian Regiment has three regular force battalions). It all depends upon the formation the unit is in and the role of the formation. The Canadian Gunner world still uses Regiment, Battery, Troop and Section to describe its unit/sub-unit structure.

(6) Interesting abbreviations - more info is required on this one...Mike C? You out there?

(7) You may wish to visit the local library to look up Gunners of Canada Volume II The History of the Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery from 1919 - 1967. It is "the" book on Gunner history.

Good luck with your research!

[Herb Danter (RIP)]

Hello Cheryl:
My name is Herb Danter and I was in the 23rd Field Regiment (SP) RCA in WW II. I was a FOO's Tech (in my time - called an O.P.Ack) and I was a member of the recce party for Dog Troop of the 36th Cobourg Battery on this particular occasion.
We had 3 batteries in the Regiment, Cheryl, the 31st (Peter) Battery fom Toronto, the 36th (Queen) Battery from Cobourg,Ont and the 83rd Battery (Roger) Battery from Hamilton and vicinity.
Your Dad was a sergeant and he was our dispatch rider (DR) when all the recce parties of the Regiment were on a reconnaisance mission this particular morning. His bike would have been an English Norton (snortin' nortins we called them)
Anyway I think he received a mentioned - in - dispatches for an act of bravery which ( I think) he should been awarded the military medal for.
It was in the early morning during the last stages of the war in Germany when all the Recce parties were sent out on their various recces. We were travlling down this back road and going around a bend in the road we bumped into a fully armed German patrol. Both sides were so surprised that we just looked at each other. So, before anything happened your Dad roared up on his bike between us and the patrol and motioned for them to drop their weapons.Fortunately they did and we ended up by taking them all back to the Regiment.as POW's. I figure our Dog Troop Party was very lucky because ours was the lead vehicle.
Cheryl, I could go on and on but if you wish to contact me further please send me an "e"mail at h.danter@sympatico.ca or phone me at 905 - 420 - 1788. and I will glaly comply with any info you desire. I live in Pickering.
Cheers
Herb Danter

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Cheryl, I too welcome you to MLU, and hope that you will remain a valued member and contributor. Herb is a fine gentleman whom I am privileged to know personally, and I'm sure he can help you. If he states your father deserved an MM for what he did, take that as fact. In WW2, many medal recommendations were downgraded by Montgomery's HQ, hence the MiD instead. Still, the latter is a high honour in that day.

I hope you will continue to keep us posted on the picture you are painting of your father and his life. You have a captive audience here!

Herb, welcome to you too! It's good to see you on MLU, but it's been far too long since we've shared a beer. We'll have to remedy that soon!

Geoff

[Herb Danter (RIP)]

Geoff:
Over the years I've wondered what became of Eric England, and yes! you are right, to my way of thinking, many acts of courage went unnoticed.
Anyway, that's after the fact, I'm still busy with the Limber Gunners Association, helping to carry on with Canada's proud military history and please forward your present address for our records.
Many Thanks again
Herb

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Herb Danter
Geoff:
Over the years I've wondered what became of Eric England, and yes! you are right, to my way of thinking, many acts of courage went unnoticed.
Anyway, that's after the fact, I'm still busy with the Limber Gunners Association, helping to carry on with Canada's proud military history and please forward your present address for our records.
Many Thanks again
Herb

I've actually seen transcripts of decoration recommendations being downgraded twice. Although I understand the difference between 'duty' and 'valour', I've never been able to bridge the gap between unrecognized valour and the numerous DSOs awarded for 'leadership'. These days, when I see a DCM, an MM or an MC, I know damned well those were hard-earned, and that the wearer probably deserved at least one higher.

Glad to hear you're still involved. I've sent you an email with my particulars. I hope to see you soon.

Geoff

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by RHClarke
(5a) A battery was a sub-unit of an artillery regiment. A battery consists of a number of troops and each troop consists of a number of guns (depending upon the unit type).

Hi Cheryl;

I regards to the above mentioned, the basic breakdown of a Field Regiment:

[Michael Ockenden]

Cheryl:

You will know that 23rd Fd Regt RCA were in Eastbourne, England from August 1943 to March 1944.

In the autumn of this year, Eastbourne Local History Society (a registered charity), will be publishing “Canucks by the Sea – the Canadian Army in Eastbourne during the Second World War”. Thousands of men from scores of different units passed through our town. The Society’s book tells their story and is dedicated to them.

With the permission of the Webmaster, I will let you know in due course when it comes out. The book will give you a good idea of what life was like for your father during his time in Eastbourne on the Sussex coast.

Mike

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Mike,

You may of course represent these men on MLU as far as copyrights permit. It will be our privilege to read your summation. After all, this is why MLU exists...

[Doug Knight]

Cheryl

I am not aware of the History of 23rd field Regiment by Mr Smith, but the Directorate of History and Heritage (DND) in Ottawa have a history of the unit compiled at the end of the war. All units had to write a history before thay were allowed to come home.

I have excerpts from the document (I feature the unit in a forthcoming book on the Sexton gun that they used) and can easily make it up to the full size - probably about 80 pages - and send you a copy if you wish. It is certainly not professionally written - they were in a hurry to get home... It is possible that Mr Smith's memoir is a commercial version of this.

Contact me at dougknight@sympatico.ca if you want me to make up a copy.

Welcome to the forum.

Doug

[Cheryl England]

Just wanted to say a big THANK YOU to everyone who responded to my posting. I am overwhelmed by your generosity in sharing your expertise and knowledge and I will be contacting several people individually. I was stunned that Herb Danter actually knew my dad Eric England and could recount a story about him - brought tears to my eyes, as Eric passed in 1980 and these memories mean so much to me.

I've attached a photo of my dad on a motorcycle and on the back it says "Friesoythe April 45, Left to Right: Doug Dobie, Bruce McNeill, Dick Mardole, Stan Collin, glen Platt & Eric England." One posting said the motorcycles used were Nortons - does anyone know anything else about the model of Nortons used in the war, as I'd like to include this in a binder I'm compiling for my family on my dad. Thanks again for all your responses and kind wishes.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Cheryl, Just to add to Herb's reply to you, the affectionate name for Dispatch Riders was 'Don R'. They performed yeoman service in the arty regiments at great risk to themselves.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally posted by Cheryl England
One posting said the motorcycles used were Nortons - does anyone know anything else about the model of Nortons used in the war, as I'd like to include this in a binder I'm compiling for my family on my dad. Thanks again for all your responses and kind wishes.

Hi Cheryl,

I am working on a book on the Canadian Military Motorcycle. Your dad appears to be astride a Norton, affectionately referred to as a "Snortin' Norton". He may also have trained on Harley Davidson WLC. E-mail me at clive@servicepub.com and I'll get you some stuff for your binder.

Clive

[Rich Payne]

Originally posted by Cheryl England


One posting said the motorcycles used were Nortons - does anyone know anything else about the model of Nortons used in the war, [/B]

The machine photographed is certainly a WD Norton and would have been the 16H model.

You can't really do better than look at Rob van den Brink's WD 16H website http://www.wdnorton.nl/

I'm sure that Rob would love to see a copy of the picture, especially as so much is known about it.

Rich.

[Cheryl England]

Originally posted by John McGillivray

thank you so much to John McGillivray for the definitions of the military acronyms- your assistance is greatly appreciated. If it's not too much trouble, could I please ask you to look at the following acronyms to see if you know what they stand for. I've included the sentance I found them in, so the context is understood.

LSR - By night, the 22nd Armoured Regiment, with a company
of LSR's had made a great leap forward.
ENSA - The Regiment was put on the entertainment circuit for
Cdn. Army shows and ENSA performances.
RQM - Capt. Maxwell became RQM
RQH - RHQ and 83rd disembarked that evening
Mike - the procedure for firing MIKE targets
AP - The AP shoot would slice a hole through the burlap
BQMS - Sgt. Quinn was later to be their BQMS
CPO - the CPO and ACPO each had carriers at this stage
CCRA - The GPO said, it's too bad the CCRA had to be at the gun
postion for that shoot
RA - Several men joined an RA forward observation Unit
DRLS - the troop provided DRLS service re communication
problems
CRA - the radios were in the CO's tank while he wasked as CRA
rep at 4 Bde Headquaarters
COMPO - Those on British ships ate COMPO rations
LO - Capt. McIlroy went to Div. Arty. as LO in the Brigade
Major's Office.
Again, any assistance you could provide would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks
Cheryl England

[RHClarke]

RQM - Regimental QuarterMaster
RHQ - Regimenal HeadQuarters
Mike - Regimental level artillery targets
BQMS - Battery QuarterMaster Sergeant
CPO - Command Post Officer
RA - Royal Artillery
LO - Liaison Officer



Those were the "easy" ones - more to follow on the others

[John McGillivray]

I strongly suggest that you read the three books by George G. Blackburn; “Where the Hell are the Guns”, “The Guns of Normandy” and “The Guns of Victory. The author was a FOO in the 4th Field Regiment RCA, and his books give a very good description of life in an Artillery Regiment during the Second World War.

LSR – Lake Superior Regiment which was the Motor regiment of the 4th Canadian Armoured Division.

RQM – Regimental Quarter Master

RHQ- Regimental Head Quarters

Mike, Uncle and Victor – These are code words used to indicate the size of the fire mission. Mike Target means that the target will be engaged by all of the guns in the Regiment (i.e. all three batteries or 24 guns). Uncle Target is a Divisional Target (i.e. all of the guns in the Division). Victor Target is calling all of the guns in the corps.

AP – Armoured Piercing. It is the type of ammo used against tanks.

BQMS – Battery Quarter Master Sergeant

CPO and ACPO – Command Post Officer and Assistant Command Post Officer.

CCRA - Commander Corps Royal Artillery

CRA – Commander Royal Artillery

RA – Royal Artillery – RCA – Royal Canadian Artillery

COMPO Rations – was the basic food rations issued to British and Canadian troops in the field.

LO – Liaison officer

[kevinT]

Hello Cheryl,

ENSA:- Entertainments National Service Association.

Or as it was known to most "Every Night Something Awful".

Cheers
Kevin

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

Thanks Rick Payne for the referenced website.
I logged in this AM, scrolled down midway just under the large photo titled "Norton WD16H and Big 4 website" I then clicked on the title"Miscellaneous-Technical and Historical" on the far left side . I then scrolled down to the title " Pictures" then click on title " WD16H Military Old".A whole set of photos popped up , each of which I enlarged to view.If you count the top row to the right over to the fifth picture,then go down the right side to the fourth photo and enlarge the photo,-and this is when my jaw dropped- The motorcyclist with the high snow covered mountain in the backgroung is my father.I wonder where it was taken.He's dressed too neatly for it to have been talen in Sicily,Italy or Northwest Europe.I hazard a guess that it was taken in Scotland.This is now the second published photo of him astride a Norton.Thanks

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

In the Liberation of Holland book photo,as was previously pointed out on MLU Forum my dad is on a Harley.Perhaps Hanno,our Guru on photos can contact Tiscali from his side and find out if there were any captions where this latest photo was taken !!

[Rich Payne]

Garry,

What an amazing coincidence ! Have you contacted Rob about where he got it from ? I know that lots of people (myself included) send him everything we find on WD Nortons.

It would seem from his caption that he thought it was Iceland.

Scotland would seem a possibility as those rounded glacially eroded mountains would fit the bill. It's certainly not NW Europe !

The machine has the early 8" headlamp which was fitted up until the end of 1940 and had originally the MT110 rear lamp which was later replaced by a convoy lamp. The satin chrome fittings have not been overpainted but it doesn't look new. Bearing in mind that the snow has not completely thawed, I would guess perhaps spring or early summer 1942. Would that fit ?

What insignia would your father have been wearing at that time ?

Rich.

[Rich Payne]

Garry,

Just read your latest post. I am in regular contact with Rob and will ask him what he knows.

Rich.

Well, The MLU Network has come through with amazing and unexpected results yet again

CHERYL and HERB ... how wonderful you two connected with each other through here! Amazing. I always still hope to meet someone who actually served with and well-remembered my Uncle's personally but that hasn't happened yet. I'm glad it's happened for you Cheryl ... and glad you can finally find out what happened to your old friend Herb.

GARRY ... I followed those links and looked at the photo of your Dad on the motorcycle, and for what it's worth, the landscape (mountains) sure looks a lot like many landscapes I've seen of Iceland mountains and land.Great photo of your Dad!

Karmen.

[John McGillivray]

Originally posted by Garry Shipton
Thanks Rick Payne for the referenced website.
I logged in this AM, scrolled down midway just under the large photo titled "Norton WD16H and Big 4 website" I then clicked on the title"Miscellaneous-Technical and Historical" on the far left side . I then scrolled down to the title " Pictures" then click on title " WD16H Military Old".A whole set of photos popped up , each of which I enlarged to view.If you count the top row to the right over to the fifth picture,then go down the right side to the fourth photo and enlarge the photo,-and this is when my jaw dropped- The motorcyclist with the high snow covered mountain in the backgroung is my father.I wonder where it was taken.He's dressed too neatly for it to have been talen in Sicily,Italy or Northwest Europe.I hazard a guess that it was taken in Scotland.This is now the second published photo of him astride a Norton.Thanks

Garry are you sure that he is your dad, or is it someone who resembles your dad? It appears that the person in the photo has the Polar Bear shoulder patch of the British 49th Division, which was in Iceland in 1941.

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

The photo is definitely not Iceland.He was never there,although he was in Scotland.Could the mountain in the background be one of the Three Sisters as they call these Ridges in Scotland.I have not as yet contacted your friend.I'm still in awe that he's the most photographed veteran whether in books or on the web.If you go into the Seargents Mess,type in Jimmy Sipton,it'll lead you to his other photo posted by Hanno and the boys.The photo had to be taken in the Midlands,but don't know yet !!I just compared the photo to one I have here at home when he joined the Canadian Legion in I think Rotterdam,while on leave.It is definitely the same person,same haircut.same corporal's stripes.Hell !! What a day for a great quiet guy.No wonder he wouldn't let me buy a 250 CC Yamaha Big Bear when I was young.But I got him.Went out and bought a brand new Austin Mini Cooper "S" ,1275 CC racer.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
Garry are you sure that he is your dad, or is it someone who resembles your dad? It appears that the person in the photo has the Polar Bear shoulder patch of the British 49th Division, which was in Iceland in 1941.

Hi Garry/John;

Garry - I would agree with John on this one, that is a 'Polar Bear' on the formation patch above his 'Corporals' chevrons. I would say also, that this photo was taken in Iceland

John - The 'polar bear logo' was the Formation Sign used by Alabaster Force, of which the British 49th (West Riding) Infantry Division, who were entrusted with the defence of Iceland in 1940, were the main force of. While in Iceland, this was adopted by and became the Formation Sign of the 49th division (1940).

Cheers

The photo in question:

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

I have been researching this Iceland posting.I checked his Discharge paper and no Iceland noted.But I do know that the 2nd Brigade of the 1st Division was posted to Iceland , landing there on May 10,1940.I know he sailed to the UK in January 1940 on the second wave of 1st Div troops.The force sent to Iceland were under Brigadier Page but were recalled.My questions are:
1)Was he detached from his unit to support this force.
I then contacted my brother the Captain(RCAF retarded-oops retired),and asked him if dad was ever in Iceland and I quote:" Dad mentioned to me that he was there for a few months and all he said was that it was desolate and miserable"

[John McGillivray]

I found this concerning “Z” Force in Iceland in 1940, however, these were 2nd Division troops.

“As early as 18 May 1940 the British government had suggested to Ottawa that Iceland should be garrisoned by Canadian troops. In particular, one battalion was urgently required to reinforce the 147th Brigade at that time. By June the British were requesting a full brigade of reinforcements and by July it was suggested that the entire Canadian 2nd Division should be dispatched to Iceland.

“While London clamored for more troops, Canada dispatched "Z Force" under Brigadier L.F. Page with a brigade-sized HQ staff and one infantry battalion, The Royal Regiment of Canada; those forces arrived on 16 June 1940. Two additional Canadian battalions for "Z Force", Les Fusiliers Mont-Royal and The Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa, arrived on 9 July. This brought the garrison of Iceland to the size of a composite division.

“Canada, however, preferred to concentrate its overseas army in one locale under its own command, and consequently "Z Force" was relieved within a short period of time by British forces.”

Source:

http://www.sonic.net/~bstone/history/iceland.shtml