Carrier Fan failures

Lynn Eades · #1 08-04-20, 10:23

I am interested to know about the failures where the generator and fan assemblies fall forward and chew up the radiator. I recall this happening to a couple of local carriers in the last few years and I wonder what actually fails.
I believe the failure is common across the carrier family. Australian pattern carriers have failures and they have no fan extension. They just use Commercial Ford standard parts.
I am aware that the stud in the front of the manifold breaks and that there was an upgrade in the stud.
I am also aware that there was a girdle fitted as standard to later British carriers to stop the whole assembly falling into the radiator.
Questions:
Who has had this happen and can report on what failed?
Does the manifold also fail?
Is the cast iron (original) stronger than the alloy manifold?
Is fan blade failure a primary cause (does a blade coming off, cause the stud to break?)
I understand that riveted carriers are good at shedding fan blades?
Some manifolds have ribs running back from the front while others (maybe early?) don't.
Any feed back on this would be appreciated.

The Bedford Boys · #2 09-04-20, 02:44

Cracked inlet manifolds and broken mounting studs seem to be the common causes. Years of over-tightened fan belts or unbalanced fans won't help the situation. Also generators with bent armatures adding vibration is no good too.

I added mesh to the back of the radiator on my LP2 when I did it, to give a bit of protection should the generator wish to take a flying leap. Have seen radiators taken out of old flathead powered trucks that have mesh and even rod rolled into a circle added for protection, so the idea isn't a new one.

When I do my next flathead, I'll be crack testing the inlet manifold.

Bruce Parker (RIP) · #3 09-04-20, 04:13

Thanks Lynn, now I have one more thing to worry about!!

I note that on Canadian carriers the four 1/4" bolts holding the fan onto the pully are wired through their heads to keep things in place.

Andrew Rowe · #4 09-04-20, 08:01

I have seen the forked section of the generator mount cracked off and into a NOS radiator, so crack testing is not a silly idea in this area. We also install mesh screens as standard to protect our radiators. Cheers Andrew.

Darrin Wright · #5 09-04-20, 11:33

At Corowa Military Veh Rally approx 5 years ago, I had the shaft of the generator spin within the cast pulley chewing it our. The blades and pulley had a bit of a wobble, but the nut held it on. I think the blades started to touch the main lead to the diver helmet distributor (I have the Macs Auto modification so the coil is remote). What alerted me to the failure was the noise it made.
I think what may have caused this was multiple rebuilds over its life span and a hard shaft in a soft cast pulley.

Regards

Perry Kitson · #6 09-04-20, 18:48

I have seen a number of the aluminum intake manifolds fail. A rather large portion of the casting breaks out, allowing the fan and generator to fall forward and work it's magic on the rad.

Perry

rob love · #7 09-04-20, 19:33

I had to replace the intake on a carrier at the museum about a year back. It was only missing the side edge of the guide that held up the generator. I tried it like that, but it quickly lopped over to one side. I replaced it with a steel intake.

Bill Gregg's mk2 carrier is sitting on display at the main museum, and has the generator leaning forward. As the carrier is a static piece (and has been for the last 30 years), I have not gone any further into it. But as I recall the whole forward portion of the intake has broken off.

Michael R. · #8 09-04-20, 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Rowe

I have seen the forked section of the generator mount cracked off and into a NOS radiator, so crack testing is not a silly idea in this area. We also install mesh screens as standard to protect our radiators. Cheers Andrew.

There are multiple failure points.

Michael R. · #9 09-04-20, 22:37

Substituting a flat washer for other components, not using updated locking plate leading to incorrect positioning, installing on manifold where the locating shoulders are cracked or missing. Failing to check the nut assembly.

kosbie · #10 11-04-20, 09:36

Does anyone have a source for the locking plates?

Lynn Eades · #11 14-04-20, 02:00

Thank you gentlemen for your interesting replys.
I have done a little research: (I'm an amateur)
Anyhow, I have 7 flathead Ford V8 inlet manifolds. see photos.
I have numbered them 1 through to 7
1,2,3, have carb mounting flanges that look like they would suit 97 Strombergs?
4 is a special unit. Part# C29SR 6520. More later.
5,6,7, have the Holley style carb mounting flange. For those not sure, the carb stud arrangement means all the carbs fit all the manifolds.
1,4,5 are cast iron, the rest being alloy.
1,2,3,7 have the blanked off forward oil filler hole.
6 is from a post war 8BA.
1,5, I cant find a part number, both being similar except 5 lacks the forward oil filler hole.
1 is drilled for positive crankcase ventilation 5 is not.

Lynn Eades · #12 14-04-20, 03:47

Ford part numbers, (for those that don't know)
Very basically Ford uses a 4 digit number to identify a basic part.
The inlet manifold for a 4 cylinder tractor made in England, or for a flathead v8 made in Canada is 6520. The thing that differentiates them is the prefix and then the suffix. Example is a Cover, C11A-6520-C (my examples:2,3,7)
There is a system to this: C=made in Canada. 1= 194(1) design. (If you want more check it out)
Anyhow Back to Carriers.
I have been checking out the various engine models in carriers and...........It's complicated.
There are 3 basic engine types (as per origin) American, British, and Canadian (in alphabetical order)
With the British built carriers they used pure British engines, American engines, and combinations of components. Of the British built engines ( 79E 6004) they came with the following suffixes:CS,DS, FS,GS, and HS.
These denote different combinations and applications, the last 2 reworked for Loyd carriers.

Anyhow:
The 1941 Canadian carrier parts list shows a Cover, C11A 6520-B cast iron. I dont know what they look like.These must be fairly common still, in carriers. Do they break?
THe March 1945 British Chilwell (Carrier parts list)63/76 lists a:
Cover C11A-6520-C I have 3 of these (2,3,and 7) They have 2 big ribs running to the front flange. Do these break?
As it happens I have the C29SR manifold that I previously mentioned. It is from a Lynx and is a very robust looking manifold. Was made to support a massive (lets do some arc welding) 90 amp generator. It has the ability to have suplimentary support brackets as was the case with the big generator. This would (hopefully) limit the failures to all the components forward of the manifold (cover)
Can anyone come up with a part number for my two other cast iron manifolds (1, and 5)
I have put up pictures of the big generator from the
Lynx along with a std. Canadian generator/ fan extension to show the comparison along with one of the un identified manifold and the C29SR.
Thank you and stay safe.

David Burr · #13 14-04-20, 07:39

We had our one go through the radiator because the front of the cast iron inlet manifold snapped off. We have since remedied this by fitting a manifold which takes the large 12V generator and support the generator at the back using the bolts in the manifold. Plus we have now installed mesh between the fan and the radiator to help protect the radiator when we did that upgrade.

ajmac · #14 15-04-20, 10:10

Both of my Belgian Army Loyds which came from the firing range had locally fabricated Dynamo supports which bolted to the cylinderheads under the main body of the Dynamo with a strap over the top to hold down the Dynamo. So I presume in the immediate post war period they had manifold failure problems too.

Lynn Eades · #15 15-04-20, 10:47

Hi Alistair, that's a serious looking mount. Would it have held a bigger than std generator? It's a bit hard to tell from the picture.

David, Was your (12volt) manifold the same as my C29SR manifold?

Tobias Weibel · #16 23-04-20, 07:42

Hello everybody
I have such a problem right now.
I am working on the restoration of a Swiss UC T-16.
The fan broke on the first test. I was very lucky, the radiator has no damage but the generator bracket has broken off on one side.
The big retaining bolt is still there but I'm afraid that the structure is damaged.
We built an adapter plate. The plate holds on the original bolt, two screws on the inlet manifold and one screw on the front of the engine. We replaced the original screws with longer ones.
The generator also destroyed it. We have now installed a small generator.
I know this is not original but we don't have many other options.
The engine is from Ford Köln. It is a German flathead. It is difficult to find spare parts for it.

greetings from Switzerland