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  #1  
Old 30-03-14, 00:34
Stuart Fedak Stuart Fedak is offline
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Last edited by Stuart Fedak; 23-10-17 at 00:02.
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  #2  
Old 30-03-14, 22:24
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Frank v R Frank v R is offline
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Default Svc b

I know from my time in that at CFB Toronto base maint. was run by EME pers. with civy workers , this included body shop, we saw very little of 25 service there , and from my time in the field I did not see them , they would have been in the field with all the other units for summer con. when the CUCV came into the system GM dealers worked on them until the warranty period was up, and as for the G-Wagon only the non union shops worked on the trucks themselves and some of this work seemed to continue after the warranty period, our shop , I worked for MB for 36 years , had the component contract ie engines , axles , transmission , transfer case , starters and alternators, this contract is now gone , and I think the G-Wagon will be gone as soon as the CF finishes rolling over the remainder still on the road , as it stands now more than a third of the fleet is sitting in Montreal now not counting the ones sitting in PCC compounds across the country, the end word on this is it depends on what has been written into the contract when the fleet is purchased and it seems over the years the work is going to the dealers more, part of this is also the right to repair as the manufacturers will not release repair info and software , this all being very bad for the soldier in the field when his vehicle quits running,
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  #3  
Old 30-03-14, 22:32
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chris vickery chris vickery is offline
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Seems counter productive to me that the CF allows such contract wording to be included which relinquishes control to civilian entities working on government owned equipment...
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1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC
1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC
1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army
1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR
1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer
1943 Converto Airborne Trailer
1983 M1009 CUCV

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and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and.......

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  #4  
Old 31-03-14, 05:14
rob love rob love is offline
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If you are talking about regular force service battalions, then here is the answer. The regular force Service Battalion. does the same work as a base maintenance, except it is mobile. It performs all the second line maintenance functions.

The old example is a head gasket. First line unit maintenance coy can change a head gasket, but if you need to change the head, that fell to second line...either a base maintenance or a svc bn, depending on the location.

In garrison, the service Bn would be responsible for that level of repair to unit vehicles, and would also have it's own veh platoon to look after it's own vehicles at the first line level.

Paint, welding and textiles would fall onto the materials techs (that trade came into being in 1985 as I recall). Prior to that, we had airforce techs attached to do some of that work.

Electronics/Fire control system work was done by the FCS (now EO) techs, again based on first line/second line repairs.

Contracting out wasn't done as much back then, especially on the green fleet. Nowadays it is done regularly as a cost saving measure on the commercial vehicles, although a little more limited on the rgular force green fleet.

As to all the tooling/shop equipment regularly going through CADC, that is just normal turnover. When you get the chance to get a new machine, you take it, cause you don't know how many years it might be until you get another chance. Sometimes it is end of year spending, other times it is warranted.

While a base maintanence usually has a heavy makeup of civilian personal, it is not so in a Service Bn. They are required to deploy, and civilians do not deploy. Also, with the small budgets these days, before you send components of the green fleet out for repair (outside of the normal supply channels) you will usually get authorization from the LCMMs so that their budget will cover it. I have worked as a civilian contractor at a few levels maintenance support for the CF, and at times it was astounding the money that would be spent needlessly so that the costs came out of the National budget instead of the local budget. The bigger picture does not always come into play when you have to spend your budget money.

The national contracts on some of the vehicle fleets like the Milcots and the Internationals (and in some cases the G-wagons) is built in to the initial plan on acquiring these fleets. It saves money to the DND longterm in not having to have such a large scale of infrastructure, as well as minimizing the number of cradle to grave employees. It also frees up soldier/technicians to be deployable.
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  #5  
Old 31-03-14, 15:19
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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Default What the Thunder Said

The modern way to going to war doesn't work with the service battalion concept (lower case for a reason). As I recall ... the Service Battalions (capitalized) grew out of constraints imposed on the army for post-war German deployments. Sean Maloney's book probably explains the manpower and budget caps from the governments of the day. No general wanted a long logistics tail and a proportionately small number of combat troops. So the 1st, 2nd and 3rd line supports were optimized for small bases and as-mobile-as-possible operations, using the local trains, and keeping the supply lines short. The result was when the CDS asked if Canada could field any sizeable force for the Gulf War, he was embarassed to be told no. Not enough trucks or heavy lift, and not enough technicians.

Fifteen years and a decade of Bosnia experience later, the same mindset was still entrenched. The log commander in Kandahar articulated his frustrations in What the Thunder Said (http://www.dundurn.com/books/what_thunder_said). He also brutally admitted to not being able to track ammunition expenditures well enough when the fight got tough. The field army damn near ran out of 25mm ammunition just as the fight get heaviest. On the lighter side, he was the first to admit fear to his soldiers after coming through a couple of IED or ambushes. 'Clerk, raise a General Allowance Claim. Yes, sir what for? A new pair of shorts. I've soiled the ones I'm wearing.'
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  #6  
Old 31-03-14, 20:22
rob love rob love is offline
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The Service Bn also covered the supply end in the field. There were about 80 gas 5 tons carrying everything that was envisioned for support of the first line units in one service Bn that I knew of in the early 80s. Imagine the poor mechanic section that had to deal with that.....oh the wheel cylinders.

But every first line unit also had a smaller amount of bin trucks. There were bin trucks within the first line maintenance sections, bin trucks with regimental QMs, and each CQ got one as well. A first line demand would get filled from the the appropriate first line bin truck, and once the truck reached it's min from the max min, then the Service Bn could refill it, or the demand could move up to the depots. The stores from the second line unit would normally be collected together and dropped to the first line unit on a DP. The locations of the Distribution Point would vary with the movement of the battle. High priority items could be handled through first line units sending someone over to second line to draw them. Larger issues (fuel or munitions) could be directly delivered to first line units to save on cross loading.

Each first line unit had it's own medics, medical trucks, recovery vehicles, cooks etc and looked after itself up to the levels of maintenance that they were to provide. Vehicle casualties that would be too much for the first line units would be collected at Equipment Casualty points to go to second line Service Bn for repair, and if too far gone for their resources, would be backloaded to third or fourth line. Medical support was not a lot different, although my knowledge of their goings on is not too in-depth.

Don't get too confused with today's military, and the support from the medical trades. There were extreme cost cutting measures and shortages of pers and eqpt that resulted in most of the first line unit's medical pers all being pooled and attached to units as needed in recent years.

Regarding kit, whatever kit was needed for a unit's role (be it infantry, artillery, engineer etc) was normally part of the unit scales. While an artillery unit may not have had engineering equipment, the engineers could be tasked via Brigade to come over to provide the needed support. But the bulk of the kit was within the units themselves. If the jobs were a first line responsibility, then the required kit would be on the scales, or you could raise a MACR and have it added. Mind you, that was often like moving mountains. Tires are an example though of where second line would often be able to help out a first line unit. One or two tires could be done with the limited tire equipment held at a first line unit, but if you had a truck's worth, then they could be backloaded to the second line unit for repair or exchange. larger scale de-contamination was another item that was often done at the service bn level.

Service Bns were the second line unit, but because of it's size, also had it's own first line support built into it, but just to support itself.

For an answer to all your service Bn questions, there are manuals detailing the roles and responsibilities of the Service Bns. That would lead you to reading manuals for many of the other trades and seeing what was envisioned as the roles and responsibilites and SOPs wrt this subject. I have a manual in my bookshelf (LORE officer's handbook pt one Field Section. CFP 314-8) that covers much of it. Overall it is a good book that also features data summaries of the equipment of the time.

While the SOPs will have changed slightly over the years with changes in technology, after action reports, and in some cases succesive staff weenies trying to implement cost saving measures, the overall roles of the service Bn has not changed that much.......provide second line support to the first line units. A lot of the tried and true SOPs of the cold war are still in place today.

Last edited by rob love; 31-03-14 at 20:32.
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  #7  
Old 01-04-14, 00:45
rob love rob love is offline
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I actually must admit that I never worked in a service battalion myself. I managed to stay on either air force base maintenance units or first line field units for my career. On my trips over to the service battalians, it always amazed me to see so many people doing anything but direct labour. In the first line units, the small number of mechanics were generally left alone from things like kitchen duties and gate sentries. If we weren't working, then trucks and tracks weren't rolling. In a service battalion, a mechanic was just another member of the unit...there were a hundred more just like him.

I have been doing my own sewing for years.It is a bit of a PIA to have to look for certain exact thicknesses of leather, dying your own canvas, and the endless search for period buckles and snaps (especially tough when you live in the barren plains of Manitoba) , but the end results are worth it.

I find some of the older machines can be had for free if you watch kijiji. Many people just want them out of their basement, kind of like pianos, shuffle boards and pool tables.

I had an old singer, but moved up to the juki a few years back. I consider Juki one of the top machines...smooth and strong.
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