Wanted: Reloadable Canadian War Dated .303 Brass

kajn65 · #1 02-03-10, 00:25

Hi,

Would anyone have any reloadable, Canadian War Dated .303 spent brass with the spent primer still intact (non-berridian primers) along with Service Mk7 and/or Mk8 Ball Bullets? I need some for making a display for our Re-Enactment Group.

Thanks.

Keyan

maple_leaf_eh · #2 02-03-10, 04:15

How much do you need? I've got a bunch of DIZ Boxer primers cases. Send me a PM.

kajn65 · #3 02-03-10, 08:38

Hi Terry,

I'm looking for a minimum of 150 spent cases with their spent primers still intact. Possiblely 200-250 cases maximum. I'll have to double check on the larger figure and get back to you on that.

As long as the cases are in good shape with no dents, cracks or holes drilled in their sides; or, have any heavy oxidization on them (they must be able to be cleaned up easly). I would like to have some to make up a batch of inert ammunition for my 3 bandoliers; and a few extra stripper clips. No one in our group has any for display purposes. All I have to date is one chrome plated Drill or Instruction Round, which I picked up at a Gun Show for $0.50. Have these cases been resized so that they can fit in the rifle's chamber once the bullet is installed?

If that's to many to ask for, then quote me a price in what quantity you have available?

I have a chap that I met at a Gun Show back in September who says he has 50+ cases with the spent primer still intact, allong with Service Mk7 and Mk8 Bullets to be installed. I've sent several emails asking for a price but, have no reply as of yet. The next step is to give him a phone call. Personally, I think he has already sold the stuff. Hence, no replies to my emails.

Would you (or any other member) be able to tell me what Canadian Manufacturers of WW2 .303 Ball and other .303 caliber ammuntion types supplied our Miliitary Forces during this time? Who where the most popular?

I have a chance to get my hands on an original WW2 Canadian/Bristish .303 ammunition box from a fellow in a community that's about an hours drive away. If I can get it, I'd like to be able to have that at least half the volume of the box loaded with inert Canadian WW2 .303 Ball ammunition. No one in our Unit has been able to find one in good shape to use. Are the rounds found loose in this ammo box or are they packed inside in their stripper clips and bandoliers? I have yet to have a definate answer on this subject.

Thanks.

Rgs...

Keyan

Tony Smith · #4 02-03-10, 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by kajn65

Are the rounds found loose in this ammo box or are they packed inside in their stripper clips and bandoliers?
Thanks.

Rgs...

Keyan

There were 6 different packaging methods for WW2 .303 Ammunition. They could be:
1. Wrapped in 10 round packets in a tin "Sardine Can" inside a plywood case,
2. Packed in 32rd cartons in timber boxes,
3. Packed in 48rd cartons in timber boxes,
4. Packed in 100rd cardboard round tubes,
5. Set 5 in a Charger (not "Stripper Clips"), 10 chgrs to a Bandolier,
6. In 250rd belts.

Postwar they introduced other packaging such as 20rd cartons, but I haven't seen any packed loose in a box.

Other varities of .303 such as Blank, Tracer, Grenade Launching, Incendiary, Armour piercing, Drill, Inspection, etc also had various packing methods depending on quantity.

kajn65 · #5 02-03-10, 11:21

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the info and the great pics.

I have heard of Method 3 and of Method 5 packed in Timber Boxes. I didn't know if this was the norm or if it was just something made up by someone.

Thanks again for the information.

Rgs...

Keyan

kajn65 · #6 02-03-10, 11:28

Tony (or others),

Are inert version of .303 Blank, Tracer, Grenade Launching and Armour Piercing; and their applicable packing boxes available to purchase for display purposes?

I have heard the "Live" Armour Piercing round may be illegal to own here in Canada. However, I haven't been able to confim that yet.

Rgs...

Keyan

rob love · #7 02-03-10, 14:54

Keyan
There are safety reasons why dummy ammunition is made to look different from regular ammunition. It is so it can be easily identified as such. There are never primers in dummy ammo, and normally small holes are drilled through the sides so it can be easily ID'd as dummy. As you have mentioned, some is also chromed and some is fluted as well.

Might I suggest that you, at a minimum, have the primers out of your dummy ammo, and give consideration to drilling 3 small holes on the sides of the cases. While authenticity is important for re-creations, an incident or accident does more harm to people in many different hobbies than the good which comes from ammo which appears live.

If you want to re-wrap dummy rounds (or even small blocks of wood for that matter) it is too easy to print up your own wrappers on a computer and fill most of the case that way. Just go with the more expensive dummy rounds on the top layer.

kajn65 · #8 04-03-10, 12:31

Hi Rob,

Myslef, as well as members of my Re-Enactment Unit, have strongly considered doing what you advised to do to the Inert .303 Rounds in order to prevent misidentification between Inert Ammunition and Live ammuntion.

However, ther are a couple of points I neglected to mention in my previous post on the subject. So it is probably best that I mention them now before progressing any further, as they do hold quite heavily to why I'm asking for my .303 casings to be in a certain condition.

Firstly, our group has a strong possibilty of doing future volunteer work with the local War Museum on Parks Canada's Citadel Hill here in Halifax. Talks are still in progress with one of our Unit's representatives.

The museum is asking our Unit to do displays inside the museum; and to set up an encampment on their grounds, while allowing the general public to view our equipment and ask general qquestions.

Secondly, Inert .303 British Ammuntion, with: either Spent or Dummy Primers intact, Service Mk7 or Mk8 Bullets installed; and, their cases not drilled are readily available for purchase by internet vendors located in Britain and Europe for a modest price. They look like Live Ammuntion except they don't have the feel (weight) of such. The same also holds true to authentic WW2 ammuntion that are describing us to make.

As a result, our group has decided to keep our equipment, ammunition, other ordinance, etc. as authentic looking as possible; while having provisions or safe guards in place to protect the general public and our members.

It's our Unit's policy to only have Deactivated or Inert Ordinance of any type on hand for publuic displays, school lectures, Leagion Re-Unions, parades, Military Collector & Trade Shows, encampments, etc. When requested, the public is given the option of handling such while under the constant supervision of a member. Live Blanc Ammunition is restricted to Military Ceremonies, parades, encampments, etc. when requested by the parties hosting such events. Live Ammunition is only used at the range.

It's also our Unit's policy, just before attending any Unit function listed above, to have at least 2 members inspect, prove and record any type of ordinance (inert, live, drill, instructional, etc.) used; in what quantities; and by whom. It's always under constant supervision of a Unit member. All Inert Ammunition is stored and transported as if it were Live Ammunition; and is kept in a lockable container when doing so.

It's nice to know that there are fellow collectors and/or re-enactors out htere who are safety minded as our members are. It's an important aspect of this hobby that must not be forgoten.

As I previously mention, I only have 1 authentic WW2 chrome plated .303 Drill Round. Eventually I will have more for my Display Kit. The same also holds true to other authentic WW2 Instruction or Drill Rounds (ones with the primers removed and the cases drilled), when funds permit.

It seems that I'm the only one in my group who is interested in doing such a thing. Hence, my specific request(s).

Rgs...

Keyan

cletrac (RIP) · #9 04-03-10, 16:31

I can see the safety issue with dummy ammo if you use live primers since that could lodge the bullet in the barrel if fired. With WW2 dated .303 ammo, I can't imagine anyone trying to fire the real stuff. I had a bunch back in the 1960s and about a quarter of it wouldn't fire then. If one didn't fire you had to put the gun pointing in a safe direction and leave it for a while. You couldn't be sure if they were going to fire in a few seconds or minutes or whatever. A dummy round would be way safer than that, holes or no holes!

rob love · #10 04-03-10, 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by cletrac

I can see the safety issue with dummy ammo if you use live primers since that could lodge the bullet in the barrel if fired. With WW2 dated .303 ammo, I can't imagine anyone trying to fire the real stuff. I had a bunch back in the 1960s and about a quarter of it wouldn't fire then. If one didn't fire you had to put the gun pointing in a safe direction and leave it for a while. You couldn't be sure if they were going to fire in a few seconds or minutes or whatever. A dummy round would be way safer than that, holes or no holes!

I fire WW2 ammo all the time; I have over 20,000 rounds of it. It all depends on how it was stored over the last 70 years. I know the hangfires of which you speak, they are especially noticeable in the late fall and winter with some versions of 303 (especially the Indian stuff).

However the safety I speak of wrt no primers in the pockets (expended or otherwise) and small holes drilled through the sides is to enable one to easily distinguish the dummy rounds from live ammo. Accidental mixing of live and blank, live and dummy, dummy and blank, can all result in in death or injury. No amount of authenticity is worth the safety factor involved.

In the military, very strict rules are involved with regard to live/training ammunition and ordnance. Yet still incidents happen every year. Intentionally making your dummy ammo look too real is not a good idea in my opinion.

Keyan: I have several hundred rounds of the chrome dummy 303 ammo. I may be talked into parting with some of it, but it will be a bit more than the 50 cents a round you paid for your one.

horsa · #11 04-03-10, 17:32

We've done a lot of WWII displays over time and at first made really accurate looking dummy rounds. Figured it would be OK simply having dimpled primers since we're usually doing events in Texas which is for the most part a gun friendly place. But over time we encountered more and more venues where the cartridges needed to be easily inspected for being inert or they couldn't be brought into the facility. Dimpled primers with the bullets in the end of the cases indicate a hung round to most people and they sure were not going to rattle them around to see if they were free of powder or cordite so we could display them with weapons.

Given the option of possibly not having a belt of display ammunition in a Vickers or using cases with drilled holes in the sides or fluted drill rounds and always being able to display them, we chose the less authentic approach.

The general public is OK with items being visibly demilled in the case of ammunition as nobody expects you to have working firearms laid out and ready to shoot in your display.

Tony Smith · #12 04-03-10, 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by kajn65

However, ther are a couple of points I neglected to mention in my previous post on the subject. So it is probably best that I mention them now before progressing any further, as they do hold quite heavily to why I'm asking for my .303 casings to be in a certain condition.

...... Inert .303 British Ammuntion, with either Spent or Dummy Primers intact, Service Mk7 or Mk8 Bullets installed....... They look like Live Ammuntion except they don't have the feel (weight) of such. The same also holds true to authentic WW2 ammuntion that are describing us to make.

It seems that I'm the only one in my group who is interested in doing such a thing. Hence, my specific request(s).

Keyan

I don't think there is a human alive who can feel the weight of an assembled cartridge and determine whether or not if it contains 39gns of propellant! If this is your safety method for ensuring you do not mix live and dummy ammunition, it has a serious potential for error.

Your request was also quite specific regarding Boxer primers. Why is that? While Berdan primer cases can be reloaded, it is a much more time consuming process, and as such Berdan cases lend themselves much more readily to making dummy cases. Also, Boxer cases tend to have a higher value due to their higher utility with modern reloaders. You could possibly get as many Berdan cases as you like for free at a Service Rifle shoot, while the Boxer cases will be jealously hoarded. The vast majority of WW2 .303 was Berdan primed, so that will be your most common find.

maple_leaf_eh · #13 04-03-10, 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

...

Your request was also quite specific regarding Boxer primers. Why is that? While Berdan primer cases can be reloaded, it is a much more time consuming process, and as such Berdan cases lend themselves much more readily to making dummy cases. Also, Boxer cases tend to have a higher value due to their higher utility with modern reloaders. You could possibly get as many Berdan cases as you like for free at a Service Rifle shoot, while the Boxer cases will be jealously hoarded. The vast majority of WW2 .303 was Berdan primed, so that will be your most common find.

That is how I turn my 'fulls' into 'empties'. And yes, Canadian nitrocellulose DIZ ammo is still competitive in the matches that I shoot. I have probably 6 boxes of 48 rounds of late WWII/Korea vintage ball. Except for some new Privi Partisan 190-odd gr soft points, that is all I buy. I haven't seen much foreign surplus wartime ammo here.

Whenever I get my act together (ie a better powder measure, a tumbler and a scales I can trust) I'll get around to reloading some of the half-dozen cartridge case types I've squirrelled away. Since I have a number of No.4 rifles, I will shoot what I've got.

BTW, I don't know where you're going to find loose nickle plated ball bullets.

Radek · #14 06-03-10, 10:27

Any time ago I have bought original 303 box. Now I have made my own repro boxes. (the original one is with the black tipe)
I have bought fired ww2 cases and made repro bullets. The bullets are made from Sn (tin).
I thing looks great for desplay.

Radek · #15 06-03-10, 10:31

Could I ask how was stored the ammo in this wooden boxes? Separately or in boxex?

rob love · #16 06-03-10, 14:00

The box marked 7.62 would have had it's ammunition on charger clips and in bandoleers, as indicated by the marking on the side of the box. I can't make out the other box's markings, but generally the ammo in the wooden box would have been either on clips in bandoleers, or in smaller boxes of 48 (or other similar smaller quantities) or else on cloth belts.

Tony Smith · #17 06-03-10, 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radek

Could I ask how was stored the ammo in this wooden boxes? Separately or in boxex?

Radek, these are not .303 ammunition boxes, but other calibres. The plywood box itself is called a H51 (that should be stamped into the woodwork somewhere), and was used for a wide variety of Small Arms Ammunition.

The first box is for 7.62mm NATO ammn (aka .308 Win, 7.62x51). The rounds were held 5 to a Charger, with 10 chargers in a Bandolier (Written on sides, with pictogram: 5 in Chgr Mk3, in Bdlr Mk3). 7 of these Bandoliers (total of 350 rds) were contained in a soldered tin liner inside. I will post some pics in daylight.

The second box is for 9mm NATO (aka Luger, Parabellum, 9x21). 9mm rounds came in cartons of 20rds, 35rds or 50rds. The 20 and 50rd cartons were WW2 sizes in which the rounds were loose within the carton, while postwar standardised on the 35rd carton which contained card dividers between rounds. This box of yours contained 25 cartons of 35rds for a total of 875 rounds, again in a soldered tin liner.

kajn65 · #18 09-03-10, 08:20

Hi Terry,

Have found out how many of your DIZ Boxer primers cases you have available for me to purchase?

I don't have to purchase a batch of minimum of 150 cases. I'd be willing to go as low as a batch of 50 such cases if necessary. If you have more available that would be great.

I'd send you a PM if I knew how. I'm sort of new to the Forum thing, let alone the internet. Lol.

Rgs...

Keyan

kajn65 · #19 09-03-10, 08:40

Hi Rob,

I was pretty lucky to get that particular type of round for that price. The dealer I bought it from only had the one available and wanted to get rid of it pretty quick. He was more interested in collecting RCMP related equipment, firearms, etc.

Just to make sure we're talking about the same type of round. The one round that I have has a chrome plated case that is indented on opposite sides and is painted red in the recess. Where the primer is suppose to be, it is also painted red. The bullet is a copper-coated FMJ. I assume its a Service Issue Mk7 Bullet. I'd give the head stamp info but I'm at work and the round is purposefully left there. Ammo of any type is frowned upon to bring to work (I work for an airline.). Is this the same type of round that you have?

I'm looking for 10-15 rounds if possible. I'd like to have ten rounds in Charger Clips and a few loose for display purposes. Just let me know how much per round you're asking.

Thanks.

Rgs...

Keyan

kajn65 · #20 09-03-10, 08:50

Hi Dave,

As I stated earlier, all our inert .303 ammunition (ones looking like Live Ammuntion) will ONLY have Spent Primers or Inert Dummy Primers (Only available in Britian or Europe?) on their cases. Live Primers (New or Misfired) are stickly forbidden for the reasons you mentioned earlier. Hence, my request for spent .303 cases with their spent primers (Boxer Primers) intact.

Rgs...

Keyan

kajn65 · #21 09-03-10, 09:18

Hi Tony,

My specific request for spent .303 cases that are Boxer Primed is because they are more easily available here on the East Coast. All Berdan Primer Cases from any vendor or shooter who has had them were quickly discarded for scrap. For any Professional Reloader or any shooter who reloads, they only use the Boxer Primer Cases for reloading because it doesn't require the specializede tooling needed to reload Berdan Primer Cases. At least that's the bunch that I have talked to over the years have told me.

Here too the Boxer Primer Cases hold a more dollar value than the Berdan Primer Cases with the Modern Reloader, especially with one who shoots; for the same reasons you state. I have also tried to abtain the Berdan Primer Cases from Service Rifle Shoots (not just in .303 calibre) and have came up empty handed. These cases are horded for the scrap value of brass. Again, which leads me to my specific request for Spent Boxer Primed Cases.

To be honest, it's an extream pain in the arse to do so. But what's a guy to do. The only other option is to use commercial brass (spent or new). The War Museum that we maybe voluteering with doesn't prefer this option. It would prefer that our Unit have War Dated spent brass for inert .303 ammo. It looks more authentic from their side of things I guess.

Rgs...

Keyan

rob love · #22 09-03-10, 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by kajn65

Hi Rob,

I was pretty lucky to get that particular type of round for that price. The dealer I bought it from only had the one available and wanted to get rid of it pretty quick. He was more interested in collecting RCMP related equipment, firearms, etc.

Just to make sure we're talking about the same type of round. The one round that I have has a chrome plated case that is indented on opposite sides and is painted red in the recess. Where the primer is suppose to be, it is also painted red. The bullet is a copper-coated FMJ. I assume its a Service Issue Mk7 Bullet. I'd give the head stamp info but I'm at work and the round is purposefully left there. Ammo of any type is frowned upon to bring to work (I work for an airline.). Is this the same type of round that you have?

I'm looking for 10-15 rounds if possible. I'd like to have ten rounds in Charger Clips and a few loose for display purposes. Just let me know how much per round you're asking.

Thanks.

Rgs...

Keyan

I will have those small quantities available, no problem. The round you describe is what I have, chrome cases with red flutes, and nothing in the primer pocket. I charge $2 a piece along with appropriate shipping.

kajn65 · #23 12-04-10, 03:17

Hi Rob,

Sorry for being so late in getting back in touch with you. It's be very hectic around here to say the least.

Between purchasing a full British Walnut Stock-Set Restoration Kit for my No.4Mk1 Rifle (currently trying to make arrangements with one of our members-an armourer in the Canadian Forces who works on the Canadian Rangers' .303's-to install my new stock on my rifle), work, dealing with a dead PC; and doing a display at an annual Model and Hobby Show with my Re-Enactment Unit ... I've been a very busy lad lately.

Would you reconfirm (send me a PM and/or email me-both addresses-if you like) the Head Stamp information on your WW2 Chrome Plated .303 British Drill Rounds? Are they made by Royal Labratories (stamped "R L" with a British Broad-arrow mark between the two letters) and are also stamped "VI*"; and have a copper plated FMJ bullet in their cases? (See my previous posts about the description of my single drill round.)

Once that is done, I'll be in touch with you again to confirm my order size.

Thanks again for helping a new collector/re-enactor out.

Rgs...Keyan (kajn65)