African vehicles

[Lang]

Interesting because of the two vehicles on a USAAF base and the aircraft with American fuselage markings and British tail markings.

[motto]

The aircraft in the background above the rear fuselage of the nearest one appears to have similar markings so it may not be a matter of the vertical fin being from another P40.
Note the white star under the wing of the aircraft in the foreground
Possibly these are RAF aircraft used to support the Torch landings in which the forces used were presented as being entirely American. This was done in the belief that the Vichy French would be more kindly disposed toward them than if they were British.
The vehicle nearest is unmistakably a Dodge WC51 3/4 ton 4x4.
The truck behind is more difficult. Possibly British?

David

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by motto

The truck behind is more difficult. Possibly British?

David,
I would say it is a Bedford OY 3 tonner

[Lang]

David,

I would say they are American aircraft. The dress of the men is certainly more American than British.

Lang

[Keith Webb]

That looks like a Merlin engined version of the P40 too without the carby intake on top.

[motto]

You're right Lang, the personnel look to be more American than British with their long trousers and some appear to be wearing baseball caps.
During the course of the operation P40s from the US Army 33rd fighter group were flown into Morocco from USN escort carriers.
Assuming Keith is correct.
Would the Us Army Air Corp have been operating Merlin powered P40s?
It would seem unlikely.

David

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by motto

You're right Lang, the personnel look to be more American than British with their long trousers and some appear to be wearing baseball caps.
During the course of the operation P40s from the US Army 33rd fighter group were flown into Morocco from USN escort carriers.
Assuming Keith is correct.
Would the Us Army Air Corp have been operating Merlin powered P40s?
It would seem unlikely.

David

Hi David,
From July 1942 to mid 1943, elements of the US 57th Fighter Group were attached to the British and Commonwealth's Desert Air Force P40 units. Maybe the tail fin flash is to denote this alliance?

This would also explain why a British Bedford lorry was on the airfield

[motto]

I think you've made the connection Richard. The aircraft flown in off the carrier/s were 75 P40Ls which were indeed Merlin powered.
And the 57 FG pilots had been operating as part of the Desert Airforce before the Torch Operation.

David

[Lang]

Dave,

I have just found an old movie. The fighters were not US or UK but French. you will note the tail markings are a bit different to the usual British ones.

The aircraft were transferred in Morocco from the 33 Fighter Group USAAF to GC11/5, a French squadron associated with the WW1 French/American Lafayette Escadrille. The American ground crews stayed with them for some time until the French crews were trained up.

More Packard Merlin p-40's were operated by the Americans than anyone else so that engine does not denote ownership.

Lang

[motto]

That's what was needed Lang, more information and it all comes into focus.
The red, white and blue flash represents the tricolour not an RAF connection. I did wonder about the narrow white bar.
There is a goodly chance that the aircraft in the photo would be some of the 75 P40Ls flown in off the carrier/s.
I'd have thought the USAAC would have been more resistant to the use of a foreign power plant especially as it barely enhanced the aircrafts performance.

David

[Lang]

Dave,

They had no worries using the Merlin on 15,000 Mustangs.

Lang

[Tony Wheeler]

Sorry to disagree Lang, but these are not the 33 FG a/c you mention. As Richard says they're 57 FG a/c attached to DAF, hence the RAF fin stripes and red prop spinner. As part of DAF the 57 FG arrived in Tunisia after supporting Eighth Army at Alamein and across North Africa.

Nearmost a/c appears to be 65 FS. What looks like nose art is actually a squadron insignia - presumably required because the early 2-digit a/c code did not identify the Group or Squadron. As USAAF Groups increased in number they quickly adopted the RAF identification system (alphabetic squadron/aircraft code) and this was in use during Torch operations (although possibly not by all USAAF Groups involved).

That said, it's possible these a/c also wound up with the French eventually, as they seem to have received most of the Allies clapped out P40s! However in this photo they are still with 57 FG in Tunisia, and most of them probably went on to Sicily and Italy.

Interestingly many a/c around this time are seen with USAAF and RAF markings together, something which is commonly explained as an attempt to deceive the French. Personally I don't place much credence in this theory, I suspect it had more to do with Allied command structures during this period.

Concerning the Packard-Merlin - this was introduced in the P40F, and the a/c pictured is an early production P40F, identifiable by the short tail. These were found to have directional stability problems due to the increased torque, so the rear fuselage was extended approx 2' on all subsequent P40s produced. The long tail P40 can be identified by the rearward position of the fin relative to the tailplane, which remained in situ. They were introduced towards the end of the North African campaign, so there may be a few in the background of this 57 FG photo. Like most DAF squadrons they would have been operating a variety of P40 models by the time they reached Tunisia - quite possibly including a few earlier Allison engined models which made it through unscathed.

[motto]

There is no doubt that the Merlin turned the P51 from an ok aircraft into an outright success that nobody could deny. That magic didn't happen with the P40.
The Curtis airframe being an older design apparently made the Merlin of little or no advantage in which case it would have been an unnecessary supply chain complication even if the P40 Merlin was compatible with the P51 which it probably wasn't and so my surprise at its adoption.
Often we know what was done but are left wondering why?

David

Good stuff Tony, keep it coming . The aircraft being a P40F would presumably predate the Torch operation and it begs the question as to how long prior to this DAF aircraft were operated in American markings?

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by motto

That's what was needed Lang, more information and it all comes into focus. The red, white and blue flash represents the tricolour not an RAF connection. I did wonder about the narrow white bar.

Not so fast David! The narrow white bar is what makes it RAF. The French tricolor has equal width colour bands. Also it was painted along the full length of the rudder, not as a miniature on the fin.

I agree the RAF fin flash on this 57 FG P40 is unusual, in that the top corner isn't cropped by the leading edge of the fin, however I put that down to Americans trying to paint British insignia!

[Lang]

Tony,

Good info.

I just had a look at about 100 photos of British aircraft. 90% had equal colour stripes ie wide white bar. The narrow white bar appears on only 10% of the aircraft I looked at and was found in all theatres.

The fatal error many historians make (not saying there is anything wrong with your conclusions) is believing regulations and standardisation in paint schemes and markings are slavishly adhered to in the field. Many is the misidentified vehicle or aircraft because it does not have or does have particular markings - even in the same unit or squadron.

Your research on these ones looks pretty impressive.

Lang

[Tony Wheeler]

Very interesting Lang, you've now got me scratching my head about the white bar width! If it varies in all theatres as you say, then perhaps it was officially changed at some point during the war....? Or perhaps there were simply two different versions floating around in the numerous official directives on a/c markings. I agree it's a mistake to assume these were slavishly followed, however I've found them much more reliable on a/c than vehicles. Anyway I shall take notice of the RAF fin flash in future and see if I can detect any rhyme or reason behind it!

As an Aussie my knowledge of USAAF markings is very limited, and my interest even less! I just happen to be familiar with these USAAF P40 squadrons attached to DAF, for the sole reason that my father also flew P40s in DAF! Thereafter they followed the same campaign trail through Sicily and Italy, occasionally sharing airfields and flying joint ops, so there's a further connection as well.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by motto

The aircraft being a P40F would presumably predate the Torch operation and it begs the question as to how long prior to this DAF aircraft were operated in American markings?

Not very long Dave, perhaps two or three months at most. The USAAF squadrons arrived with DAF in Egypt a few weeks before Alamein, which was late October, and Torch was early November.

There were about half a dozen USAAF squadrons with DAF, comprised of P40 Fighter and B25 Bombardment Squadrons. They all carried the RAF fin flash in addition to their USAAF markings, and I believe they were delivered in a plain pinkish colour scheme intended specifically for desert use (unlike USAAF a/c intended for Torch operations which all arrived in camo scheme).

[Lang]

Here are 2 photos of DAF P40's. Wide and Narrow white stripe.

This is an interesting link.

http://raf-112-squadron.org/79th_fg.html

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Lang

Here are 2 photos of DAF P40's. Wide and Narrow white stripe.

I'm guessing the wide stripe was officially superceded by the narrow stripe, possibly to reduce visibility to enemy a/c. Perhaps this was initiated in the desert where the problem became evident in the much brighter light. Whatever the case, the wide stripe is seen on early model P40s and becomes increasingly rare on later models. Will need to check more photos of course.

[Lang]

If you can follow the same squadrons through a period you might see if it was a widespread instruction or just what the squadron signwriter decided.

[Lang]

You are on a hiding to nothing to try to make sense of the tail markings.

I found AWM photos of RAAF P40's in Italy with both wide and narrow stripes in the same squadron.

Here is a photo of Australian P40's in one squadron, wide stripes and nothing! December 1943

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Lang

You are on a hiding to nothing to try to make sense of the tail markings.

Yes I suspect it will probably do my head in if I try! As you say the logical way would be to follow the timeline in a few different squadrons, to see if it was time related or just local practice.

No need to worry about the Aussie P40s pictured, they're operating in SWPA so they bear RAAF markings (blue and white only). DAF was under RAF command so all British Commonwealth squadrons operating with DAF bore RAF markings (red/white/blue).

[Lang]

[No need to worry about the Aussie P40s pictured, they're operating in SWPA so they bear RAAF markings (blue and white only). DAF was under RAF command so all British Commonwealth squadrons operating with DAF bore RAF markings (red/white/blue).[/QUOTE]

Yes. It was taken at over Thursday Island. Purpose was to demonstrate how difficult it is if the same squadron aircraft are painted differently.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Lang

Purpose was to demonstrate how difficult it is if the same squadron aircraft are painted differently.

Sorry Lang, somehow that rather obvious difference in markings escaped my attention! I must have been suffering brain fade by then.

As you say it's difficult to explain these anomalies, and having looked at that series of AWM pics now, they raise even more questions! However it turns out they were taken soon after 84 Sqdn converted from Boomerangs to P40s, so that might explain the absence of markings on all but one a/c. Interestingly it's a later production P40N (identified by the modified rear cockpit for improved rear vision) so perhaps it arrived separately from the others with the fin flash already painted. Another photo of this a/c reveals the squadron code already painted too, but only on the starboard side, and another photo shows it painted over in white on the same day!

Another undated photo on the ground, which I assume to have been taken later, shows the fin flash now painted, but with no squadron code, and the a/c code is numeric.

I haven't found any other photos of these a/c, but presumably they were marked normally when they became fully operational with 84 Sqdn. However the squadron was reduced to cadre status in Qld a few months later, pending conversion to P51s. Photos show these were marked normally.