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  #1  
Old 05-08-18, 20:08
Tom Millward Tom Millward is offline
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Default Mk1* Carrier T No

Hello all,

I have just found all of the serial numbers on my Mk1* Carrier, but there is no T No.

The details on the upper edge of the front hull plate read:

‘- 3 1942 Ford 5868 (the a 2 under a broad arrow)’

The lower hull number on the rear angle iron is 4935

The hull number behind the commander is CB 4374

Does anyone know how I can work out the T serial No, or know how I can get any details on contract etc?

Many thanks,

P.S I will post some pictures as soon as I can work out how to do it?
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  #2  
Old 05-08-18, 21:10
Michael R. Michael R. is offline
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Paraphrased
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Millward View Post
Hello all,

I have just found all of the serial numbers on my Mk1* Carrier, but there is no T No.

The details on the upper edge of the front hull plate read:

‘- 3 1942 Ford 5868 (the a 2 under a broad arrow)’

The lower hull number on the rear angle iron is 4935

The hull number behind the commander is CB 4374

Does anyone know how I can work out the T serial No, or know how I can get any details on contract etc?
I do not see your engine number listed. Look on the left rear corner of the engine block, on the machined surface of the intake manifold. That number reads left to right. Once you have that number you could have an accurate data plate made.

Look to see your WD series T number, which may be partially concealed under the lid of the instrument panel. I believe you will find your carrier was produced as one of 3,400 made for War Supplies Limited, Contract WSL72.2. That research material was published by Nigel Watson in his 2006 publication Universal Carriers, Volume 1, Page 293. ISBN 978 0 9556009 0 6. I am suspicious the Contract number may read ‘WSL 72.250’ or ‘WSL 72.251’

Document research within the Directorate of Movements may show the shipping details from Ford of Canada for that carrier, however: the files are not indexed. At more than 150 reels with an average of 5,000 images per reel it is a labourious task.

Last edited by Michael R.; 06-08-18 at 16:26.
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  #3  
Old 05-08-18, 21:29
Tom Millward Tom Millward is offline
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Thanks Michael,

I haven’t noted the engine number yet, that is the next thing on the list. Once I have, do you know where I can get a data plate made? Mine is missing.

I took the driver’s panel cover off but couldn’t see the T number. It looks like there has been a repair/weld at some point, so that section of the Armour could have been lost.

Can you tell me what ‘War Supplies Ltd’ is as I have not heard that term before?

Many thanks,

Tom
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Old 05-08-18, 22:01
Michael R. Michael R. is offline
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Paraphrased
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Originally Posted by Tom Millward View Post
Thanks, . . . can you tell me what ‘War Supplies Ltd’ is as I have not heard that term before?
Ford of Canada did ship universal carriers to the British Ministry of Supply under WSL 72.250. Each carrier was boxed, the box given a number, the carrier WD number was listed on the weights and measures document. For example, on 15th October, 1942, case #2 contained T174801. (A boxed MK-I* carrier weighed 9,400 lbs.).

The standing order book at Ford Canada was reported by Watson with notes showing War Department (WD) numbers allocated to South Africa, Australia, New Zealand and East Africa.

You may know CDLV, (Crown Department of Land Vehicles) or simply the contraction ‘CD’ were Canadian contracts. SM were British, A for Australia and NZ for New Zealand. That information is published by Watson in Volume 1 at page 294.

The Canadian government supported other countries through assorted Mutual Aid programs; their contracts appear to have AID/GB, AID/USSR, AID/CHI, followed by the appropriate numerical order, i.e.: AID/USSR 59.

Roger Lucy, the late Clive Law, Hanno S. and others have discussed in some detail the WSL and Mutaul Aid minutiae back about 2010/2011.

Last edited by Michael R.; 22-01-20 at 06:22.
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  #5  
Old 06-08-18, 21:54
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Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is online now
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Tom, suggest you pick a different number. T53664 is a number used by two carriers in N.Z. I have a photo somewhere showing this number, very faded, but looking very original, on one of them.

THIS POST IS FLAWED. SEE NEXT POST.
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Last edited by Lynn Eades; 07-08-18 at 08:02.
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  #6  
Old 07-08-18, 08:00
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Tom, having had a discussion with a friend, I have been brought up to speed.
I now know where your carrier came from, and can verify that the number is T53664 . Somewhere I have a photo that would date back to the 70s.
As a matter of interest, I believe that it carried the N.Z. Governor General and his wife in a street parade in one of N.Zs provincial towns, many years ago.
When I find the photos, I will be able to confirm.
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Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
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  #7  
Old 07-08-18, 11:28
Tom Millward Tom Millward is offline
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Thumbs up

Many thanks Lynn, I appreciate your efforts. Any information you have on the Carrier's history would be gratefully received.

Most of my other vehicles' history has been lost, so to be able to trace the Carrier would be great. Do you happen to know whether the Carriers in NZ were supplied directly from Canada, or were they supplied by the UK government when we were supplied with upgraded Mk2/2* variants?

The You Tube video showing Carrier weapon handling training is a Mk1* Carrier, but with no T number unfortunately.

Thanks again,

Tom
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  #8  
Old 10-08-18, 00:16
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Hi Tom, I cannot locate any info about how we received Canadian universal carriers.
Jeff Plowman's first book refers to 54 Universals and 111 Mortar carriers, all of which I believe were English, built by Sentinal Wagon. (based on a small selection of "T" numbers in a few old photos)
I have a vague recollection that we (N.Z) received 300 Canadian carriers. I cannot validate this.
The few Canadian U.C's. that are still around here are all MkI*. I have never seen anything that I recognised as MkII*
There is not much left here in the way of carriers. Most were worked to death after the war.
When a kiwi rebuilds a riveted carrier, it is generally a bold effort with most starting from a pretty bad state. Your one was put back together many years ago by Alan Watson. He was what I would call a pioneer in M.V. restoration, so yours is one of the better ones.
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Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.II. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....
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  #9  
Old 10-08-18, 09:06
Paul Dutton Paul Dutton is offline
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Hi Lynn
Quick change of subject.
Out of the 111 MK1 Mortar Carriers sent th NZ, don’t suppose you have any T numbers available. My two came from NZ, be good to trace bit of history.
One is T84809 Mk1 3” Mortar
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Last edited by Paul Dutton; 15-08-18 at 10:07.
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  #10  
Old 11-08-18, 00:09
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One is Wolseley, T84089 and T83601 according to Brian Johns (owner before Mark)
Edit: Sounds like between Brian and Mark, someone decided to keep one or both?

Further edit: Both Wolseley, Both U.C. Mortar, No.1 (60h.p.)MkII (MkII Mortar)(not MkII U.C.) (my understanding)
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Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.II. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....

Last edited by Lynn Eades; 11-08-18 at 00:39.
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  #11  
Old 14-01-20, 00:09
Tom Millward Tom Millward is offline
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Default T Number

Hello gents & Happy New Year.

I've been under the impression that my Mar '42 Carrier was assigned the WD serial number T53664. See serial no below:
Click image for larger version

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However, I've just found the following images of a museum Carrier (in SA I think), which seems to disprove the number I'd assumed for mine. As this one is over a year later than mine but with T50193.

Click image for larger version

Name:	detailbilder-bren-gun-carrier-universal-carrier-mk-i-walkaround-306-0142.jpg
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ID:	111430
Click image for larger version

Name:	detailbilder-bren-gun-carrier-universal-carrier-mk-i-walkaround-306-0170.jpg
Views:	2
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ID:	111432

Does anyone have a Carrier of serial number similar to mine (5868) that I can work the T number for mine out from?
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  #12  
Old 14-01-20, 02:10
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
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Hi Tom,
Surely that last photo showing the edge of the armour shows WD no. T50198 not 3 ?

David
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  #13  
Old 14-01-20, 02:26
Michael R. Michael R. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert View Post
Hi Tom,
Surely that last photo showing the edge of the armour shows WD no. T50198 not 3 ?
David
Yes, a numeral “8”.
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  #14  
Old 22-01-20, 09:57
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Tom, Here are pictures of your carrier T53664.
The first picture shows a cut carrier hull bearing that faded T number, with a proud younger Allan Watson. As it happens Allan came to my place to show me his photos about 2 to 3 years ago. I contacted his wife who told me that Allan had died about 18 months ago from cancer. Mrs Watson wasn't able to give me much detail, but was happy to let me photograph her photos.
The Lady and gentleman so dressed were Lady Blundell and the Governor General of New Zealand, Sir Denis Blundell. Sir Denis Blundell served as Governor General from 1972 until 1977.
As you can see the left side hull upper plate was replaced with a plate from the lower hull from another carrier. This shows the rivet holes and rust line along the floor junction angle iron. You can also see the slot that the rear bogie frame mounts through.
So to your hull number etc.

I have recorded a few lower hull numbers.
They are:
4198
4200
4282 (mine) (I will probably use T 53043 as I have used the floor from it and
have the piece of the left side plate bearing that number)
4291
4294
4935. (yours)
I can tie one lower hull number to a "T" number. 4291 belongs with T 53043
However 4294 belongs to T 53666 (a 620 jump forward) Block of numbers used elsewhere?
As it happens T 53666 also has its upper number which is CB 4201.
I cannot explain why your "T" number is 2 lower and jumps up dramatically on both upper and lower numbers (around 600 on both) Has your drivers front plate been changed?

On the pressed serial plate, can someone show me by photograph where exactly that plate is located. I have never seen one of those plates in N.Z. and question that they were ever fitted to the carriers that came to N.Z. In saying that I have not seen a plate on the front guard either.

Are there any other surviving carriers from contract WSL-72.2 (T 51965 to T 55364) This being the contract that the Kiwi Canadian carriers came from.
Anybody have any ideas?
Attached Thumbnails
2020-01-19 18.50.09.jpg   2020-01-19 18.45.50.jpg   2020-01-19 18.48.07.jpg   2020-01-19 18.52.42.jpg  
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Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.II. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....

Last edited by Lynn Eades; 22-01-20 at 10:14.
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  #15  
Old 22-01-20, 12:15
Tom Millward Tom Millward is offline
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Wow, that's fantastic, thank you Lynn for all the hard work. It's great to see some original pictures, including the size and position of the T Number. Mr Watson certainly had to put a lot of work into her. I'm sorry to hear that he is no longer with us. I can now put his picture with all the others I have taken in pride of place at the start if its restoration journey.

There is some evidence of welding around the front plate. I had assumed that a section had been cut out to improve visibility for post war use, and the original piece welded back in, but it could be that the whole plate has come from a second Carrier and would explain the confusion around numbers.

I'm assuming then that ours came from a contract that was supplied direct from Canada to NZ?
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1944 Willys MB (OP VARSITY veteran) M5535401
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1942 Royal Enfield WD/CO/B
1943 James ML
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  #16  
Old 22-01-20, 19:15
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Tom, the contract was for about 3000 carriers. only maybe 200 to 300 of them were for N.Z. I am waiting for some info from another forum member.
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Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.II. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....
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  #17  
Old 27-01-20, 07:25
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Tom, you "T" number should also be on the top of the drivers plate along from those you have posted.
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Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.II. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....
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  #18  
Old 27-01-20, 11:51
Tom Millward Tom Millward is offline
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Hi Lynn,

My T number is missing from the Driver's plate. It was either never there, or the Driver's plate has been replaced when Allan restored it, and the T number was removed to avoid any mismatch with the original T number.
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1942 Royal Enfield WD/CO/B
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