Ford/Marmon-Herrington MGT's

[nuyt]

This one's beautifull: A Ford trooper truck during the Indon. Indep. Wars (all pics from the Dutch national Archives.

Somehow I have a suspicion the bidywork and canvas cover were a local manufacture...it looks even similar to pre 1942 KNIL trucks...

Chassis/cowl delivery to Java?

Nuyt

[Bill Murray]

Nuyt:

Your two mystery pics are Studebakers, I don't have my Stude book handy but I think 1947/48. When I find the book I can better state what I think they are.
Nice and very unusual pics.
Bill


Nuyt: Found at least one book. Not the best reference book, "The Studebaker Century" but has some stuff.
Based on what I read, your vehicles are most likely 1946/1948 M-16 which seems to be a 1.5/2 ton rated 4X2. There is one pic of such trucks being prepared for CKD export.

Of minor interest in the same book is a short 1/2 page discussion with pics, of " The Desert Explorers" which were 1950 Commander sedans and 1/2 ton pickups built for ARAMCO for use in Saudi Arabia for oil exploration. Pretty much the same concept used 10 years earlier in the Middle East by Empire Forces. 9:00X13 tyres, big radiators, stronger clutches etc. The sedans even had the same flanged mudguards we see on Fords and Chevs of the 1940 era.
Bill again.

[Bill Murray]

Hanno/Nuyt:

Can you provide some "key words" in Dutch for the search engine on this photo archive. I can do it in Australian/British/French/ German/Scandinavian etc. but not in Dutch.

I suppose words such as "military truck, ambulance, lorry, cargo carrier, etc" would be a start. I did not see a translator program attached to the site.
Thanks. Bill

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
Somehow I have a suspicion the bidywork and canvas cover were a local manufacture...it looks even similar to pre 1942 KNIL trucks...

Nuyt, this type of bodywork and canvas cab cover is often seen on chassis/cowl trucks delivered to India. With the abundance of Indian Pattern trucks in Indonesia after WW2, I'd say Indian provenance is the most likely option.

H.

P.S.: please write down the photo numbers next time

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
Can you provide some "key words" in Dutch for the search engine on this photo archive. I can do it in Australian/British/French/ German/Scandinavian etc. but not in Dutch.

Bill, go to Uitgebreid zoeken (extended search) and enter words like vrachtwagens (trucks), tanks (tanks), ambulance (ambulance), carrier in the "Trefwoord" (key word) or "Beschrijving" (description) field. Narrow down your search by entering years in "Periode vanaf/tot en met" (period from/to), or by selecting a "Collectie" (collection) - "Fotocollectie Dienst voor Legercontacten Indonesië" will be your most likely area of interest.
Once you've found some pictures of interest see what key words they are filed under and copy these to extend your search. Have a go and let us know when you get stuck!

HTH,
Hanno

[Bill Murray]

Hanno:
Thanks for the tips. The extended search was the killer tip!!
I found that book on Dutch Military Vehicles I have so picked up some words there too. I will be picking away at the archive bit by bit.
Bill

[nuyt]

thanks both of you,
Studebakers, wow, completely new to me!
Greetings
Nuyt

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
Now we're at it: here is another one:

From the same old article by Claassen (Mars et Historia) that came up with the Maple Leaf tractor. It is a 4x4 Ford commandowagen with winch, that according to Claassen came available after war broke out (so after dec 1941). If this is true, where was it ordered? The commandowagens served with the artillery battalions and possibly in other units.

Hanno, might this be a Marmon-Herrington delivery?

Enjoy.

Nuyt

I think this is probably the HQ Car of 2nd Mountain Arty Btn (A II Bg) Salatiga, Java.

By the way: Both Mountain Arty Btns were by 1942 motorized (A I Bg less 3rd Bty garrison Tjimahi, 3rd Bty Batoedjadar Firing Range) aswell as three units mobilized by Depot Mobiele Artillerie (DMA) in Tjimahi, namely 7th Mountain Bty, Bty van Praag (3 x 75mm Krupp M/11) and a Howitzer Section (2 x 105 mm Bofors M/24).

[nuyt]

Hi Stellan,
thanks for the input!
Can you confirm if both mountain artillery battalion had been equipped with the Chevrolet Maple Leaf 4x4 tractor? See also the thread on this vehicle)
Do you have any data on how many Ford/MH trucks had been received?
Kindest regards,
Nuyt

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
Can you confirm if both mountain artillery battalion had been equipped with the Chevrolet Maple Leaf 4x4 tractor? See also the thread on this vehicle)
Do you have any data on how many Ford/MH trucks had been received?

No Sir,
I am a gunner and not a driver. So I dont know what tractors they had - but I would like to know.

So as a beginner in the field of KNIL motorization I have so far located the Vickers Utility Tractors counting them to be 20.But there were 30 x 47 mm M/35 Böhler AT-guns.

I guess you already know that the AT-guns in the Mobiele Eenheid was not town by Tractors but by standard trucks.

Greetings
Stellan

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
Thanks both of you: now we know KNIL had light AA cars on Opel P4 chassis. Some references suggest these kinds of cars were called "autolette" in NEI.

David, do you know what other vehicles Opel exported to Priok?

I think this picture is from April 1940 at Andir AFB (Bandoeng). It should then be an AAMG Platoon from APLA 2 (2nd Heavy Weapons Coy) from Tjimahi.

The autolettes were small trucks fitted for transport of troops. There were benches on the loading floor. The troops were sitting with their backs against the cab, i e travelling "bakwards".

[cliff]

The Ford canteen van bodied trucks may have been ex-Australian Salvation Army canteen trucks.

[nuyt]

I guess you already know that the AT-guns in the Mobiele Eenheid was not town by Tractors but by standard trucks.

Stellan, the AT guns in the ME were US 37mm guns of which KNIL apparently had receive a small number in 1942 in time (of a huge order). Some sources say these guns were carried ON trucks! Not sure if this would mean self-propelled...

think this picture is from April 1940 at Andir AFB (Bandoeng). It should then be an AAMG Platoon from APLA 2 (2nd Heavy Weapons Coy) from Tjimahi.

Definitely!

The autolettes were small trucks fitted for transport of troops. There were benches on the loading floor. The troops were sitting with their backs against the cab, i e travelling "bakwards".

Great, never saw a picture. Can they be found in Stabelan? Do you happen to have any pictures?

Cheers!
Nuyt

[nuyt]

Hi Cliff,
Yep, they can be. The following pic shows two cantinewagens at sea en route somewhere in Indonesia on board KPM Kalienda.
The second one shows one of the vehicles after seeing "action".
Both pics from the Beeldbank.
Cheers
Nuyt

[nuyt]

last one was no 458668. This one is 458711
Enjoy!
Nuyt

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
Stellan, the AT guns in the ME were US 37mm guns of which KNIL apparently had receive a small number in 1942 in time (of a huge order). Some sources say these guns were carried ON trucks! Not sure if this would mean self-propelled...

Dear Nuyt,

No, Sir!

My scanner is out of order (it works with e-mail but not on this forum).

There is a pic of an autolette (with a VAUBC driver) who Col Heshusius published in one of his KNIL books. (The photographer was my late Father-in-law).

37 mm US AT-guns in ME? Let us count: APLA 1 = 9, APLA 2 = 9, APLA 4 = 6, APLA 6. That makes 30 of 30 available 47 mm Böhlers.

You are totally right!

To the best of my knowledge there were only 8 US 37 mm AT guns L/58 on Java.

Loading AT guns on trucks was quite normal at that time.

By the way: Do you visit the War Records Office in Den Haag often? I only was there once (My Wife - the Java Tiger - makes med go to Holwerd and Laauwersoog, Friesland, directly after hitting ground at Schipol).

The R Sw Army made their own "Overvwagens", i e the Karosspansarbil m/42 of which there were 200 on Volvo 4 x 4 and 238 on Scania-Vabis 4 x 4.Built in series 1943-46. They looked similar to the Stadswacht type.

We also had a number of Chevrolet chassis for our ACs m/31 (31 extant), the newest of mod 1940. I rember seeing one in 1965, now in museum.

Tomorrow will be sunshine!

Stellan

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
Hi Hanno,

KNIL had some experience with MGT's, of their own make.
In the late thirties the four Infantry regts on Java (1,2,4,6) all received a motorised Pantser- en Luchtafweer (PLA), or Anti-tank and Anti-aircraft company, that was equipped with 6 Boehler 4,7cm AT guns (with Vickers or other? tractors) and 9 light trucks with watercooled .50 Colt-Browning, fitted on an ex-naval mount.
By January 1942 there was a total of 42 PLA-wagens as these vehicles were called, divided over the 4 regts (15 in PLA-1, 9 in PLA2, PLA4 and PLA6 respectively).
Several pictures of these trucks can be seen in various publications and two main types always appear: one clearly a Chevrolet light truck (1940 model?), the other type looks much older and quite obsolete. I am not sure if this was also a Chevrolet (mid-thirties-model?). Enjoy.
Nuyt

Hello again Nuyt,

The reorganization of the Heavy Weapons Coys in the Inf Regts was carried out in 1938.

I agree that there were probably 42 PLA-wagens --- on Java. I am however not convinced that the ad-hoc AAMG Platoon organized by PLA 1 and deployed at Kemajoran Airfield had trucks. Could also be on normal AAMG mounts. Then we are down to 39.

The 12 PLA-wagens of APLA 1 were sent to Andir AFB - but not the 3 AAMGs at Kemajoran (which I think was closed down at that time).

Some of the AAMG Platoons at the Airbases outside of Java also had PLA-wagens. I don´t know exactly how many.

Stellan

[nuyt]

By the way: Do you visit the War Records Office in Den Haag often? I only was there once (My Wife - the Java Tiger - makes med go to Holwerd and Laauwersoog, Friesland, directly after hitting ground at Schipol).

Yep, from time to time I visit the library of the Dutch Army Museum in Delft, the National Archives in the Hague and the Military History Institute in the Hague. Worthwile as well for you is a visit to Bronbeek Museum and Library. I have a full time job, so I need to take a day off now and them to plunge in the archives and dossiers...

The R Sw Army made their own "Overvwagens", i e the Karosspansarbil m/42 of which there were 200 on Volvo 4 x 4 and 238 on Scania-Vabis 4 x 4.Built in series 1943-46. They looked similar to the Stadswacht type.

I like them! I was surprised at their looks...They were still used in the Congo in the 60's I believe by the Swedish peacekeepers?

Some of the AAMG Platoons at the Airbases outside of Java also had PLA-wagens. I don´t know exactly how many.

This I would like to find out. Especially if there might be some (small) delivery of the Ford/MH AA trucks after all...

regards,
nuyt

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Hello Nuyt,


The Swedish KP-bil m/42 was used by UN forces in the Mid-East and Congo. When UN left Congo they were left there (I think 10). At least one was run by international mercenaries gathering in South Africa under LtCol Mike Hoare.

The Volvo type (VKP) was phased out in the 1960-ies, but the Scania-Vabis (SKP) stayed in service up till the turn of the century. The surviving SKPs had been modernized with a o an armoured roof. They were all serving on the Island of Gotland (18th Armoured Brigade, Visby).

From the beginning the KP-bil m/42 was unarmed. In the 1950-ies they were fitted with a twin-barrel 8 mm AAMG M/1936 Colt-Browning (the worlds most powerful weapon in that calibre).

In Congo a SKP fought a duel with an ex-US AC M-20. The 8 mm ammo m/32 penetrated the M 20 and it was knocked out.

The surviving SKPs on Gotland were rearmed to 2 x 7,62 mm LMGs 58 FN GP.

Stellan

[nuyt]

Back to the MH Machine gun trucks:
I recently acquired Crismon's book on US vehicles (highly recommendable) and found the following entry on page 247:

"In 1939 M-H converted a batch of these Fords as mg carriers for escort duty and general AA use. (...). A Model OT2-4, the model shown here was basically nothing more than a chassis/cowl with a floor plate and seats added. (...). These carriers were used primarily for training operations in the US."

A forerunner of the KNIL vehicles...

[nuyt]

On this site below (in Dutch unfortunately) one can read how the Dutch 43 transport company was ordered from Java to Dutch New Guinea (that was not yet going to be handed over to Indonesia) in late 1949.

See my posting above:

Here they are (from: Afscheid van Nieuw-Guinea, Het Nederlands-Indonesisch conflict 1950-1962)

[nuyt]

Let's revive this thread again. JNust found a picture on www.hetgeheugenvannederland.nl
showing Ambonese KNIL troopers during the INdonesian Independence War with this truck:

Enjoy,
Nuyt

[Bill Murray]

Nuyt:
A smashing photo!!
This would be a 1949 or 1950 FordMH, most likely 1949, followed by a Studebaker pickup.
The photo above, which I missed first time around, not only has similar FordMH vehicles but what certainly must be a very early Dodge Power Wagon as a chassis cowl. If you have a better pic of this it would be quite interesting.
Sadly, I lack time just now because of the Christmas selling season in the store but I will try to keep up.
Cheers
Bill

[nuyt]

same unit, same source

Overvalwagens!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
Ambonese KNIL troopers during the INdonesian Independence War with this truck:

Great pics, Nuyt! I am amazed by the amount of pictures us Dutchies have online....

By the way, this is a right-hand drive truck, isn't it?!?

H.

[Bill Murray]

I too am amazed. Now, Nuyt, what is the secret to getting into the archive? 20 minutes of screwing around and I finally got one thumbnail of a truck (vrachtauto) in a tobacco factory but could not enlarge it or get a link to the caption. Do I have to join the site or what?
The Chev could be 1948 to 1950, it is a bit hard to tell as the pic is a bit fuzzy. I tend to think most of those Fords and Chevs on this and a couple of other sites you two have found are 1949 models as 1948 was a bit early for exports and 1950 saw Holland in the "chitter" as far as world opinion was concerned out there and I would bet most US type vehicles came over in 1949.

As I have said before, the internet is becoming a volcano/earthquake/tidal wave of information and photos. I add an average of a site a day to my bookmark list and it is becoming overwhelming. Sadly, with the mix of languages, it sometimes takes a hell of a lot of time to "break the code" but in some cases it has brought a gold mine of new or different photos. Often, Russian/Finnish/Japanese/Chinese, the languages are not something I can really handle but if I get the right "key" words I can manage.

Keep the Dutch pics coming both you two and others. They are totally new to the softskin scene and very valuable from an historical standpoint.
Bill

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
Now, Nuyt, what is the secret to getting into the archive? 20 minutes of screwing around and I finally got one thumbnail of a truck (vrachtauto) in a tobacco factory but could not enlarge it or get a link to the caption. Do I have to join the site or what?

Bill, I have problems viewing the site too. The first try I got the same results, the next day I was lucky to get some pictures on my screen. Basically, the site is terribly slow, only remedy would be to keep trying. Luckily for you, you can access it when all the Dutchies are asleep

H.

[Bill Murray]

Well Hanno:

Normally, that would work as our time zones are so different but sadly, I am a nocturnal animal and am usually on the web at around 0100 and again at 0400 due to my aging kidneys/bladder and prostate gland, I guess. As long as I am up, I usually surf the web. So, I am there at the same times as you Dutchies.
My typing I do as soon as I get back from the store as I am still running on the last of my stored adrenalin.

Anyhow, to the site question. Up until very recently I had thought that if I just had a faster processor and DSL connection that I could download and upload things lightning fast.
I am only just now learning that there are different levels of web sites in terms of performance as regards accessing and downloading stuff from them. While DSL and a fast processor help, it seems if the site is itself not designed for speed you will still sit forever waiting for something to appear or load or whatever. Of course it is also true, not that I am an expert, that some websites are designed by people who would be better off geting into another line of work. I have two employees who "design" websites as a side job. One does a pretty good job but the other designs garbage in my opinion. His sites are almost impossible to understand and navigate and are primarily graphics oriented.

So, it is now 15 days till Christmas and I am hopping 7 days a week at the store and can only pop in now and again. Please keep the links/pics coming as it is dead easy to grab a pic or save a website for the better days for me that come in January when I try to take a week or so holiday at the house and spend most of my time on the computer getting caught up from the Thanksgiving to Christmas selling season.
Cheers
Bill

[nuyt]

here is your picture, Bill
keep trying, use ambush, shock and awe, surprise and a bucket of slime to get those pics on your screen (and a lot of patience):

North Sumatra, tobacco area of Deli:

[Bill Murray]

I will fight the good fight!!
Here's a little tidbit from the NEI, a Chrysler staff car.
Bill