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  #1  
Old 13-11-22, 01:15
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Default Horrific air crash

Sadly there was a horrific mid air collision today at an airshow in Texas between a P63 King Cobra and a B17. No survivors and 7 killed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5CgCDR_ufU
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Last edited by Jordan Baker; 13-11-22 at 04:47.
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Old 13-11-22, 04:03
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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Default Commemorative Air Force

P-63 not P-36. The FAA registry shows 19 airworthy B-17s in the US. The Commemorative Air Force's website shows 2 B-17s.

The lesson for the military vehicle community is to only take safe vehicles on the public roads, and be mature enough to acknowledge when your pride and joy has deteriorated or has not be maintained to be roadworthy.
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Old 13-11-22, 04:09
rob love rob love is offline
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Wow, that was quick and definite. Two to 3 seconds from collision to ground impact. At least the crews likely did not suffer.

Appeared as though most of the planes were flying the same direction with the exception of the Cobra. Definitely a lack of control of the airspace.


Sympathy to the families of the crew, as well as the spectators who had to watch that.

Last edited by rob love; 13-11-22 at 04:34.
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Old 13-11-22, 04:50
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Agreed Rob, most like the B17 crew had no idea and then it was over for them.

In one of the shots the falling B17 just missed another warbird taxing on the runway.

This was a photo I found on Twitter. It’s just so surreal. The red squares are just autofocus points. It reminds me of a scene from the movie Memphis Bell when the one B17 gets sliced in half. Except sadly we know this isn’t a movie.
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Old 13-11-22, 13:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob love View Post
Wow, that was quick and definite. Two to 3 seconds from collision to ground impact. At least the crews likely did not suffer.

Appeared as though most of the planes were flying the same direction with the exception of the Cobra. Definitely a lack of control of the airspace.


Sympathy to the families of the crew, as well as the spectators who had to watch that.
Absolutely, looks like an horrific and tragic accident... sadly I think completely avoidable... no way the Cobra pilot should have been allowed to fly across the traffic stream.

My sincere condolences to the friends and families of the victims.
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Old 13-11-22, 16:40
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Default Definitely a lack of control of the airspace

Very sad indeed! B17 Texas Raiders has been in operation by the CAF since the late 1960's(!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob love View Post
Appeared as though most of the planes were flying the same direction with the exception of the Cobra. Definitely a lack of control of the airspace.
Pierre Olivier said "Maybe we should stop using pre-1945 aircrafts in air shows and preserve them in museums? I keep thinking that all the flying warbirds will crash one day, if they keep being used in air shows."

I think flying them is one thing, using them in air shows in crowded airspace and stunts is another. See this video to see how crowded the airspace is https://fb.watch/gMINd1qX3G/

RIP aircrew
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  #7  
Old 13-11-22, 23:48
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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Default P-63 movement

I suspect the P-63 flew into the B-17 completely unaware it was in his path. Banking, power on, speed rising to join a formation, no downward visibility, and another aircraft closing underneath. A lot of attention will be paid to the location of the show line, and the pre-show briefs.

In a very sad way of saying, perhaps it was for the best that the incident aircraft broke apart and all concerned died suddenly. No one for the lawyers to sue.

Vintage aircraft are a complicated subject in US civil aviation circles. Another B-17 operated by the Collings Foundation crashed a few years ago that was mechanically unsafe, it had half a dozen passengers along for an experience flight, and the aircrew weren't talking to each other very well. The pilot really wanted to get flying, and the maintainers weren't going to cross him or each other to say, 'that airplane can't fly on three engines no matter how much we want it to'. But, the public clamours to see them and the owners want to show their airplanes. The FAA can't easily order everything made before XXXX date to be grounded.
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  #8  
Old 15-11-22, 04:30
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Accidents happen, that is life.

Why do people who do not own or fly the aircraft want them grounded and deprive millions from seeing them in their proper environment.

Very rarely do airshow accidents involve public casualties, probably far less a proportion than car race/rally accidents. One member of the public killed in an airshow accident is headline news, five people killed in a car rally accident is on page 5. Are we to ban motor racing?

If the public is not involved it is nobody's business but the willing participants.

An aircraft in a museum is just a dead lump of metal - even collections in hangars and museums have been destroyed by fire.

In the air it is living history

Just on that particular accident. It was not crowded airspace, they were all going in the same direction, well spaced, on a briefed course with very little danger. I have no idea where the P63 was supposed to be but I suspect the fighters may have had a stream of their own joining the bombers in front of the crowd 500 feet higher. Either the B17 was too high or the fighter too low but the bomber was certainly in his blind spot underneath. Human error like 99% of the 200,000 car accidents around the world every day.

Here is a clip showing amateur private pilots not only in formation which is practiced and controlled but everyone doing their own thing landing in crowded conditions far closer and more risky than a flyover - and nobody died.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o51KWkTpSY

Last edited by Lang; 15-11-22 at 04:57.
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Old 15-11-22, 09:03
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Here is a nicely colourised B17 movie of them at work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc4bLpU5mf0
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Old 19-11-22, 09:24
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Here is a magnificent detailed look at the B17 involved in the accident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLpBBbhzlL8
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Old 19-11-22, 10:22
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Thanks for your insights as an aviator, history buff and collector, Lang

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lang View Post
Here is a magnificent detailed look at the B17 involved in the accident.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLpBBbhzlL8
That's poignant footage as the maker of that video, Kevin "K5" Michels and two of the crew on that flight, Leonard "Len" Root and Curt Rowe died in the crash of Texas Raiders. See the rest of the airmen involved in the tragic accident at Wings Over Dallas on the Commemorative Airforce website: https://commemorativeairforce.org/ne...-the-kingcobra

I'd say they died doing what they loved most, apart from being a pal, friend, father, husband, son to their loved ones. May they rest in peace.
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Old 19-11-22, 22:49
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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The armchair analysts have been all over this accident.

One of the more informed observers I've seen suggested the bombers were in one stream with about 1000 ft off the spectator line, and the fighters about 1500 ft off. The P63 was third of the fighters, and he seems to have been closing too fast on the second fighter. The suggestion is he backed off by widening his turn. At closing speeds, that put the P63 into the bombers' track.

For the HMV crowd, I draw the lesson of speed and direction control, especially when moving in convoys or packets. When the Swords and Plowshares Museum puts its vehicles on the road for Canada Day parades, the experienced drivers keep reminding the others that drum brakes aren't as responsive as disks and turn signals are either tiny or done by hand. There is another column characteristic of accordioning with the last few vehicles either hard on the gas or standing on the brake pedal.
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  #13  
Old 21-11-22, 01:13
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Terry

The Crowd Line is a legal distance (differs in different countries) away from the do-not-cross Display Line. The aircraft have no interest in the Crowd Line all their attention is focused on the Display Line which is always very well marked eg a taxiway, canal, airfield boundary fence or large white panels.

Aircraft may not turn towards or fly over the crowd. Any flight over the crowd can not involve manouevres or be part of a show and is usually a straight line above 1,500 feet such as the arrival of a formation from the rear for effect. Most shows will not allow even this.

Mass loose flypasts are almost impossible to accurately separate horizontally.

It would be very unusual for two groups arriving on different paths to be separated horizontally at the same height. In fact I would go so far as to say never.

One other thing you must remember, particularly with fighters, is these aircraft are often flown by wealthy geriatrics well past their prime. Time and again you can tell from their operation and radio calls they are so far behind the aircraft and what is going on around them that they may as well be still on the ground. They can pass a check ride when nothing stressful is happening, operating in a show with others providing surprises around you is another thing. Nearly all of them have giant egos and don't know when to quit. The bombers on the other hand are also often ancient-mariner piloted but they have the benefit of a second opinion and many extra eyes looking out.

Groups can be very accurately separated vertically and I believe in this case they were and somebody got it wrong.

Lang

Last edited by Lang; 21-11-22 at 04:21.
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  #14  
Old Yesterday, 01:38
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Here is a review of the official investigation.

Looks like the Air Boss (Show Director) is for the high jump!


https://youtu.be/IRVqg-pCb6o
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  #15  
Old Yesterday, 04:59
rob love rob love is offline
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Someone on that youtube commented that this was the air bosses first show, having taken over from his father who was the previous air boss and retired the year before. The same commenter mentions that the breifing did not give any vertical separation as well as other shortcomings. There were experienced pilots in the room as well as the FAA rep and nobody raised a concern. I guess nobody wanted to be "that guy".



So with the change of lines for the two types of craft (given during the flying pattern no less), and no vertical separation given, the control of airspace was gone. Or was it ever there during this portion of the exhibition? It was dangerous before the line change, it became deadly with the line change.
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