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Old 21-09-09, 09:44
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Rick DeBruyn Rick DeBruyn is offline
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Default DeBruyn MK-1 1942 restoration project

Thought I would start a thread on the restoration of my Canadian MK-1 1942 Ford UC-2 serial # 11606 hull 10607 3” mortar variant. The preceding serial numbers were taken from the tag behind the drivers head, however this leaves me a little confused as the lower hull number 11606 does not match the number on the angle iron at the back (gunner side) of the carrier 10587, shouldn’t these numbers match?

I have finally started pulling it apart after a few months of gathering needed parts and gleaning information from carrier “experts”. As of now I have the engine out and headed to the rebuilder for a check-up and perhaps a rebuild if needed. The engine came out without any surprises, if I had any frustrations it was the amount of slotted screws & my lack of correctly sized slotted screw-drivers. Some of the armor screws seemed quite large and I haven’t found a supplier of oversized screwdrivers yet.

Perhaps another problem I’m running into, is the rusted bolts, hinges, shutters, cotter-pins, etc. 60+ years of weather has “glued” much of the carrier together. Has anyone come up with a secret formula or method for loosening the stubborn parts? Too often I use brute strength then later regret it after I snap something.

I would like to “gut” the remaining parts attached to the hull ASAP and get it to a sandblaster/painter. I could use a little direction on the correct type/color of paint. One helpful expert provided me with the following explanation;

“The colour question is a difficult one to answer conclusively. I have looked into paint regulations in wartime Routine Orders, and the fact of the matter is that they change fairly often depending upon the availability of various paints. For example, as of 29 May 1940, it was decreed that vehicles in Canada should be painted “Khaki Green, No. 3, matte finish.” However, in September 1942, it was ordered that “basic No. 2 brown paint” would be used. But this does not mean that every vehicle was then repainted in No. 2 brown. The 1942 order stipulates that vehicles would only be repainted brown if they otherwise required repainting. The fact of the matter is that paint was in short supply, and had to be conserved. As such, no one lost much sleep over mismatched colours. (There was even an order issued to SP gun crews not to walk unnecessarily on top of their vehicles because their boots wore off the paint!)

Were vehicles painted in other colours on operations overseas? Certainly, and that would depend upon what paint was available through the British Lines of Communication. So in the end, you need to make your best guess based on the available evidence and the period/location you are trying to represent – don’t forget that there are lots of excellent colour photographs available of this stuff from the period. In this regard, you should contact the Laurier Centre for Military Strategic and Disarmament Studies in Waterloo, Ontario, as they have published lots of the colour photos in their battlefield guide books.

I would go with No. 3 khaki as your base colour, and then if want to overspray with another colour on the exterior, it would still look legit.

You will probably have to add a fair amount of flattener to get the true matte finish.”

I don’t have a period sample to work from, might any of you have the correct “color recipe” for a western Canada supplier? I would say the khaki green #3 is the color to go with but what is it?

Highlight and copy then past the following link in your web browser to view a few more photos.

http://picasaweb.google.ca/lh/sredir...5oH&feat=email

Regards, Rick
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Original owner in 1949.jpg   IMG_0581.jpg   IMG_0059.jpg   IMG_0061.jpg  
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  #2  
Old 21-09-09, 09:51
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Rick DeBruyn Rick DeBruyn is offline
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Default Items found

I found a few items in the dirt at the bottom of my carrier, it was rather fun scooping a bunch of dirt out of the bottom then sifting through it to find a few treasures. Of the few track pins I found I noticed at least one pin appeared stainless steel (very shinny finish), was this manufactured by the military or after market?

I would like to re-pin the tracks however I understand its difficult to find NOS pins. Has anyone had success manufacturing your own pins? The operating instructions & workshop manual (UC-F1) describe the pin material as nickel chrome steel with a diameter of .437.

Does anyone recognize the toothed looking item?

Rick
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Treasures found.jpg   IMG_0025 - Copy.jpg  
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  #3  
Old 21-09-09, 09:59
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Is there a way of removing the top paint to see the information hidden under the top paint layer? Would the Regiment/Brigade/Division info be found underneath?

Rick
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  #4  
Old 21-09-09, 11:06
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rick there is a way of removing the paint one layer at a time, but it would be a delicate operation, you have some nice tools there ! i like the jacking stub you have which goes into the front bogey tube and used with the bottle jack. not sure on what the best chemical would be to use, but perhaps a very diluted celulose thinners and i mean "diluted" Iam super jealouse you have a very nice carrier there. my lower hull number is 10131 so not a million miles from yours, mine was manufactured 1942 too at the windsor ontario plant

looking at the plate your CT or T number would have been T11606 unless i am mistaken, which looking at the lists is obviously the case....i thought the serial number was what would be painted on the side of the armour ? if this is the case 11606 is within a batch of carriers 10678-11677 UCmk1 made by wollesley ? ironic if it was correct, your carrier would have been from the same batch as my grandfathers which was T10829
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__5th Div___46th Div__
1942 Ford Universal Carrier No.3 MkI*
Lower Hull No. 10131
War Department CT54508 (SOLD)
1944 Ford Universal Carrier MkII* (under restoration).
1944 Morris C8 radio body (under restoration).

Last edited by RichardT10829; 21-09-09 at 11:24.
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  #5  
Old 21-09-09, 15:05
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also noticed you have the fuel dipstick which i am told from my pal Don.... are rare as hens teeth (for an original one that is) i beleive it mounts on the engine covers somewhere
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__5th Div___46th Div__
1942 Ford Universal Carrier No.3 MkI*
Lower Hull No. 10131
War Department CT54508 (SOLD)
1944 Ford Universal Carrier MkII* (under restoration).
1944 Morris C8 radio body (under restoration).
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  #6  
Old 21-09-09, 15:25
rob love rob love is offline
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The CT number will be stamped on the front plate to the left of the serial number. It is my belief that the CT number was some form of a war department registration number on British commonwealth armour, with the C standing for Canadian.

An example of a mix of serial/hull/body numbers on a carrier similar to Rick's was:

CT number (front armour): CT113354
Front armour serial: 11101
Div Plate number CB10099
Hull number 10094
DND number painted on side armour(domestic, if overseas would have used the CT number): 42-1-8596 later replaced by T56-749


The numbers do not match, possibly because a certain amount of work would be done to the lower hull without the armour, and then the upper armour would be added. As a result, numbers could vary from near matching to being a thousand out.

The above numbers came from one carrier out of 5 that we salvaged parts from quite a number of years back. The carriers were located on the North shore of a lake requiring travel by boat and a short hike to reach them. I have the numbers of the other 4 as well. On all of them, the differences vary from slight to significant.
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  #7  
Old 22-09-09, 05:32
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Default no.s

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thought I would start a thread on the restoration of my Canadian MK-1 1942 Ford UC-2 serial # 11606 hull 10607 3 mortar variant. The preceding serial numbers were taken from the tag behind the drivers head, however this leaves me a little confused as the lower hull number 11606 does not match the number on the angle iron at the back (gunner side) of the carrier 10587, shouldnt these numbers match? The upper hull and the lower hull no.s are not the same. They are usually out from a few to a few hundred. I'm not sure on the 42 models if the CT no. is on the hull edge. I know it is on the MK.II.
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Model U.C. NO-2 MK II.*
SERIAL 25680
HULL 24699. LOWER HULL 24742. ENGINE TL-26707-F.
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CT 266677
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  #8  
Old 08-12-09, 23:02
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Rick DeBruyn Rick DeBruyn is offline
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Richard, sorry for the delay in getting these measurements for the front armor here they are none-the-less. I re-measured with a digital caliper and I found the following, the readings are a little curious as they were not consistent, although the .50 mm difference could be a buildup of paint?

CTL 7461 is 11.00 mm
CTL 12780 is 10.51 mm
CTL 12780D is 10.53 mm
CTL 3888D is 11.00 mm
CTL 12859 is 10.73 mm

Im close to sending the hull to the sandblaster then off to painting. Anybody able to help on the correct color and finish to use on the WW2 Canadian/Commonwealth carriers? Also, I have damaged my front bogie assembly bushing (CTL 102 - Bushing, front bogie bracket fork) could anyone help me out with a couple?

Ive downloaded a few more photos to Picasa . http://picasaweb.google.com/rickgdeb...PvEiZGk4uGBPg#

Here are some of our Remembrance Day parade in Edmonton. http://picasaweb.google.com/rickgdeb...at=directlink#
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  #9  
Old 09-12-09, 10:55
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Rick from my research i have found depending on what date and what theater of war they were going too they would be different, for example carriers delivered to Italy after may 1943 were all brown however prior to that they would have come from tunnisian and Sciciliy theater and would be a mix of green, sand and brown etc etc if you are going for an italy or western desert theme i can help as i have two books from mike Starmer on paint schemes for these theaters


cheers for the measurements. i have made front armour patterns out of wood and test fit with excelent results, they are away getting cut and shamphered out of 10mm steel, i will be able to forward measurements and drawings etc very soon.

cheers

ps as for your bushing i would not use second hand ones as each carrier has led a different life, for what it would take to turn one i would perhaps remove a good one from the other side and use it aws a pattern to make a full set of new bushes buddy ? just my humble opinion though.


Rich
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__5th Div___46th Div__
1942 Ford Universal Carrier No.3 MkI*
Lower Hull No. 10131
War Department CT54508 (SOLD)
1944 Ford Universal Carrier MkII* (under restoration).
1944 Morris C8 radio body (under restoration).
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  #10  
Old 09-12-09, 20:15
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is offline
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Default Rick

Would you want to pay post from New Zealand? I have those bushes for an Aust carrier (near enough to the same)
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So many questions....
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  #11  
Old 09-12-09, 20:20
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Thanks for your reply Lynn, Yes I think I would be ok to pay from N.Z. send me a note with costs to rick@aztecinspection.com I’ll provide address detail. Again, thanks.
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Old 09-12-09, 20:25
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Could anyone that owns a Mortar Carrier with the mortar brackets (front & back) help me out with close-up photos? I will need to reproduce them for my project. Many thanks, Rick rick@aztecinspection.com
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  #13  
Old 10-12-09, 10:17
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is offline
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Default Rick

does this help
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May 08 142.jpg  
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Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....
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  #14  
Old 11-12-09, 13:01
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kevi powls also has a mortar carrier with ll the brakets still in situ.
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__5th Div___46th Div__
1942 Ford Universal Carrier No.3 MkI*
Lower Hull No. 10131
War Department CT54508 (SOLD)
1944 Ford Universal Carrier MkII* (under restoration).
1944 Morris C8 radio body (under restoration).
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  #15  
Old 11-12-09, 18:30
greg anderson (RIP) greg anderson (RIP) is offline
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Default Mortar brackets

Only one picture before my camera froze up -made one of these brackets from one given to me -hope photo comes through

Click image for larger version

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  #16  
Old 16-12-09, 02:49
greg anderson (RIP) greg anderson (RIP) is offline
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Default mortar brackets

Photo taken at Coe Hill warriors Day 2009
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  #17  
Old 11-01-10, 04:45
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Default In Ottawa

I will be in Ottawa, Ontario this week for business and plan to tour the Canadian War Museum Wednesday afternoon, any of the Ottawa locals interested in a visit at the museum? Perhaps locals could suggest some must see spots or surplus stores? I plan to get lots of photos of the Carriers at the museum so if any one has any close up requests let me know and I will try and accommodate them . Email me at stuff4rick@gmail.com or call cell 403-823-0333. Rick
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Old 15-01-10, 06:02
George McKenzie George McKenzie is offline
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I hope you are able to see any vehicles Rick when at the museum .They were locked up and there wasn't anyone to show us down stairs . Jack Guthery from Calgary gave them alot of vehicles . Our group was very disappointed ,but we did see the roof that pointed to the peace tower on the parliment buildings
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  #19  
Old 15-01-11, 02:18
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Default Reproductions

An update of the reproductions Ive been working on. The foundry finally did some preliminary pours on the reproduction castings that weve talked about in the past. Next they will set up the machining CNC process. I will let you know how all proceeds. Rick

I have had patterns made for the following Carrier items they will be available to the group when the foundry finishes cast process. Im located in Alberta Canada.
1-CTL 168 SA knob assembly
2-CTL 1534 Hinge female, CTL 1535 Hinge male, (TL 1537 Pin - 3.4" x .5")
3-TL 8689 Bracket - AA Bren gun mounting
4-CTL 607 SA support assembly - pick head stowage
5-Bren gun mounting stem - AA Bren gun mounting, CTL 12429 (lower), CTL 12431 (upper)
6-TL 7167 Handle protection plate locking
7-TL 12458 Bracket - smoke generator discharge
8-CTL2078 Headlight wire cover.
Attached Thumbnails
CTL607SA & CTL1534 & CTL1535 & CTL168SA.jpg   TL 8689 Bracket AA Bren gun mounting.jpg   Shutters.jpg   TL 12458 Bracket - smoke generator discharge.jpg  
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  #20  
Old 15-01-11, 18:10
super dave super dave is offline
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Hey Rick the parts look great
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  #21  
Old 15-01-11, 18:57
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Hey Rick,

I'd likely be interested in one of the pick head stowage mounts when you start making them. My T-16 was lacking that part and the one I fabricated works but really isn't correct. Sure the Canadian carrier version is virtually identical to the T-16 part since it mounts in the same location and does the same job.

My other parts from Rod that you wanted to copy are still in OZ but I haven't forgotten.
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  #22  
Old 15-01-11, 20:01
Doug Lavoie Doug Lavoie is offline
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Rick,
Right on. The parts look great, can`t wait to see the finished product. This will give some people a chance at obtaining parts other wise not easily found, if at all. My hat is off to you for your efforts.
Doug
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  #23  
Old 15-01-11, 21:29
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is offline
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Default Castings

Those castings look to be very well done, with very little finishing work required. Great stuff!
I have an original pick bracket. and the casting appears to be done around the bolt, or maybe the bolt is pushed into a hole, which includes the hex for the head (stops the bolt from turning)
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Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....
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  #24  
Old 15-01-11, 22:07
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Rick i would love a copy of the pattern you used for the smoke discharger so i could make my own.
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is mos redintegro

__5th Div___46th Div__
1942 Ford Universal Carrier No.3 MkI*
Lower Hull No. 10131
War Department CT54508 (SOLD)
1944 Ford Universal Carrier MkII* (under restoration).
1944 Morris C8 radio body (under restoration).
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