Motorcycle query

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

RASC machine C 38694:

http://www.iwmcollections.org.uk/med...NG_014_025.jpg

Does anyone know which make it is please?

[Dave Page]

Hi,
looks very much like a BSA.
Cheers,
Dave

[Rich Payne]

It looks to be an early BSA M20, 1937 or 1938 pattern which differed quite considerably from the later standardised War Department model.

The "C" number that you're quoting is a bit puzling as the pictures I have seem to suggest a change to six digit numbers by 1936. Could there be an extra cipher ? I can't bring any detail up from the IWM on line image. Do you have a better copy ?

Rich

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

That's the number on the tank..it's evidently around 1936, possibly 1937-8.

[Rich Payne]

According to Orchard & Madden, the original 1936 prototype M20 had serial no.C363543 (It is featured in IWM photo KID 5608).

There were three further prototypes in 1937 and the first production order for 398 machines was placed in 1938 and carried numbers starting at C389144 and finishing at C391832 which suggests delivered in 1939.

I shall let a BSA man have a look and see if he can positively ID.

Rich.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Just checked the print...the number is white on balck square with white border, painted on the tank.

[Richard Farrant]

David,

That is a Triumph 3SW 350cc side valve, made from 1938, it is part of Contract No. C2073

[Rich Payne]

Richard,

Good grief, slipped up on that one, didn't I ? I'm going to stick to Norton IDs in future

Any idea why Triumphs had that 5 digit C number as late as 1938 ?

I'm going to stick to Norton IDs in the future.

Rich

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Rich Payne
Any idea why Triumphs had that 5 digit C number as late as 1938 ?

Rich,

I don't think you can accurately date by Census numbers. These numbers are for all "B" vehicles, plant and trailers, and I believe that the numbers may well have been allocated when the purchase order was made, which could have been months if not longer, before the actual delivery.

Just checked Chris Orchard's book and contract was Demanded in June 1938.

[Rich Payne]

Richard,

It's not so much the accuracy of the date as the system that I was trying to understand. I must confess to only having looked at the motorcycle numbering.

There seems to have been a rough corelation between year in service and the first two digits of five from 1933 onwards, changing to six digits in 1935 and seven in 1939. There was then a jump at the end of 1939 from C39***** numbers to C41***** (Any idea what happened to C40***** ?)

Nortons for example jumped from C3934708 to C4101401 in November 1939 (according to the factory ledgers) mid-way through a contract.

Rich

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Rich Payne
There seems to have been a rough corelation between year in service and the first two digits of five from 1933 onwards, changing to six digits in 1935 and seven in 1939. There was then a jump at the end of 1939 from C39***** numbers to C41***** (Any idea what happened to C40***** ?)

Rich,

This system started around 1930, from No. 1, in fact No.1 to 5208 was allocated to Impressed Vehicles of various makes and types, next was M5209 to 5230 Austin 2 seater car, 4x2. It is by pure coincidence that the first two digits on the example you mention, are around the year of manufacture. There appeared to be batches of numbers not used and 399999, prefixed L, because it was a Thornycroft, was the last five figure serial starting with 3. 40000 to 46000 was a group not taken up. Then C46001 to C47551 was for Impressed m/cycles of various makes.

Your example C39**** to C41****, is I assume, six figure numbers? If so they were used with various makes of vehicles and m/cycles, inc. BSA Royal Enfield, Norton, Morris Comm., Scammell, Ford, Guy, etc.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

C 38614 to 38999, C2073, Solo 350 cc SV Model 3SW!

[Rich Payne]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
Rich,

This system started around 1930, from No. 1, in fact No.1 to 5208 was allocated to Impressed Vehicles of various makes and types, next was M5209 to 5230 Austin 2 seater car, 4x2. It is by pure coincidence that the first two digits on the example you mention, are around the year of manufacture. There appeared to be batches of numbers not used and 399999, prefixed L, because it was a Thornycroft, was the last five figure serial starting with 3. 40000 to 46000 was a group not taken up. Then C46001 to C47551 was for Impressed m/cycles of various makes.

Your example C39**** to C41****, is I assume, six figure numbers? If so they were used with various makes of vehicles and m/cycles, inc. BSA Royal Enfield, Norton, Morris Comm., Scammell, Ford, Guy, etc.

Richard, Thanks for your thoughts on this. Do you have a copy of the Chilwell Census booklet ?

I have now come across my source for having this idea of a link to "year in service" - Peter Hodges and Michael D. Taylor's "British Military Markings 1939 - 1945" -

"The numbers followed a sequence which had started with 1 in 1920, and were allocated by the RASC Stores Depot. During the 1930s, a scheme was instituted where the first two numbers indicated the year of entry into service but this does not seem to have survived for long. No doubt it was given up in the enormous wartime expansion."

The numbers that are of particular interest to me are seven digit numbers (I asume it went to seven after they reached C399999 ?) Norton contract C.5109 (W1000 - W6999) used C3932709 to C3934708 and then jumped to C4101401, finishing at C4105400. If I could establish whether the "C39" sequence ran up to the end of 1939 then it would give me a better idea of when my machine went into service (although not, perhaps the production date).

Rich.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Rich Payne


The numbers that are of particular interest to me are seven digit numbers (I asume it went to seven after they reached C399999 ?) Norton contract C.5109 (W1000 - W6999) used C3932709 to C3934708 and then jumped to C4101401, finishing at C4105400. If I could establish whether the "C39" sequence ran up to the end of 1939 then it would give me a better idea of when my machine went into service (although not, perhaps the production date).

Hi Rich,

Six digit census numbers continued up to 992227. The seven digit numbers started with an Ariel W/NG contract at C1034001 (approx 1941).

I take it you have seen Orchard and Madden's book? According to this book, the Contract Date for batch you refer to was 16th March 1939. Production may not have started until sometime after this date, due to previous contracts still in production.

The theory about the first two digits indicating year of entering service may have been true, prior to the war, but with the massive increase in vehicle procurement, that then went out the window. The last few contracts with six figure census numbers, were for Triumph, Matchless and Royal Enfields and started 88.... through to 99....

[Rich Payne]

Now I'm confused ! I do have Orchard & Madden and they are my only source for the non-Norton stuff. The Ariel number looks like a real oddity, doesn't it ? I have been counting the Norton census numbers begining at C3910768 as seven digits.

I think that the contract date of 16/3/1939 is a bit early for C.5109. Twenty years or so ago, there was a query in "The Classic Motorcycle" relating to this contract and a date of 16/9/39 was given. I also have a list compiled by the former VMCC Military Motorcycle specialist, made prior to Orchard & Madden's book and it suggests that production began on 7/10/1939 which is substantiated by the surviving factory records which show the last machine from the contract prior being despatched on that date. Unfortunately, this is more or less the only despatch book from the WD contracts which has survived.

Of course, none of this is of critical importance but I can't help wondering if I have a 1939 or 1940 bike !

Rich

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Rich Payne
I think that the contract date of 16/3/1939 is a bit early for C.5109. Twenty years or so ago, there was a query in "The Classic Motorcycle" relating to this contract and a date of 16/9/39 was given. I also have a list compiled by the former VMCC Military Motorcycle specialist, made prior to Orchard & Madden's book and it suggests that production began on 7/10/1939 which is substantiated by the surviving factory records which show the last machine from the contract prior being despatched on that date.

Rich,

The Contract Date can be well before production for that batch is started, in order to keep a constant flow of production, hence you comment on the previous contract not being completed until 7/10/39.

I suggest you get hold of a copy of "B" vehicle census numbers, preferably the version where the numbers are in numerical order (not the one in list of makers), available from Groucho Publishing. This will explain it all.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Seems to be!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

.

[Rich Payne]

David, thanks for posting those pictures, you've made my day !

You're absolutely correct in suggesting that the machines are Nortons (Is it the same bike in both pictures ?)

Based on the assumption that census numbers followed frame numbers which is a little dubious on these early machines but the only option in the absence of surviving records, C4102632 would have been frame W4231. I am rebuilding W4216 as C4102617. I don't think that I'm going to find a closer match for detail info

The machines look standard and I hope that the pictures date from early 1940. I'm particularly interested in the continued use of the pre-war style black background for the census number with what look like hand-painted ciphers.

It looks as if I am about to become a customer of "Stilltime". Do you happen to have an image reference for the close-up shot ? I can't find that one on the web site.

Rich.

[servicepub (RIP)]

I suggest you get hold of a copy of "B" vehicle census numbers, preferably the version where the numbers are in numerical order (not the one in list of makers), available from Groucho Publishing. This will explain it all.

Where does one find a copy of this book?

[Rich Payne]

Originally posted by servicepub
Where does one find a copy of this book?

From Rob van Meel's website.

http://www.robvanmeel.nl/index.php?Search=chilwell

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Hi! Photos aaf410 and 411 can be purchased by contacting DAVID RILEY at info@minibusales.co.uk , and he offers e scans or prints from the glass plate negs. I agree about the date being circa 1940..perhaps David has the captions? There are some more military shots, with pre-war Army civvy-registered coming to mind from probably the equivalent of the ISDT (including in Germany!).

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

350 cc sv WD-C?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

!

[rewdco]

350 cc sv WD-C?

It is indeed!

Just to show the difference, here's a 350cc OHV WD/CO

Jan

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Note the W0A2 Utility Car based on the Model 62 in the background. Thamks for that photo!

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally posted by Rich Payne


Based on the assumption that census numbers followed frame numbers which is a little dubious on these early machines but the only option in the absence of surviving records, C4102632 would have been frame W4231. I am rebuilding W4216 as C4102617. I don't think that I'm going to find a closer match for detail info

Rich.

Rich,

I have some lists of vehicles issud to Canadians in 21st Army Group. I 'played' with the census numbers vs the serial numbers* (I assume that this is what you are calling the frame) and found a correlation.

*Some numbers start with W while others have no prefix. I can share these sheets with you. The sheets also include Matchless bikes.

[Rich Payne]

Clive,

I would love to see that information. With luck it will include some earlier machines.

Wartime production Norton 16H s should have a "W" prefix on their (originally matching) engine and frame / chassis numbers (the Big 4s have an "S") I too would assume that this is the "serial" number.

I have seen some corresponding numbers on documents realting to machines that made it through to BAOR records but no 1939 / 40 bikes.

Rich

[rewdco]

Originally Posted by Richard Farrant

Rich,

This system started around 1930, from No. 1, in fact No.1 to 5208 was allocated to Impressed Vehicles of various makes and types, next was M5209 to 5230 Austin 2 seater car, 4x2. It is by pure coincidence that the first two digits on the example you mention, are around the year of manufacture. There appeared to be batches of numbers not used and 399999, prefixed L, because it was a Thornycroft, was the last five figure serial starting with 3. 40000 to 46000 was a group not taken up. Then C46001 to C47551 was for Impressed m/cycles of various makes.

Your example C39**** to C41****, is I assume, six figure numbers? If so they were used with various makes of vehicles and m/cycles, inc. BSA Royal Enfield, Norton, Morris Comm., Scammell, Ford, Guy, etc.

Richard,

After having studied the Chilwell list intensively, I have come to this conclusion:

The Chilwell records started in 1933, with number 33 000. At that time, there was no difference between the RASC and the RAOC numbers. There were less than 999 numbers allotted in 1933. Logically, in 1934, the sequence started with 34 000. But in ’34, the army needed more vehicles, and after 34 999 came 34 1000 of course! Same story in 1935 and 1936, but in 1937, there was a block from 37 000 until 37 999, then 37 1 000 until 37 9 999, and then came the 37 10 000 until 37 99 999 block…

Towards the end of 1939, it became clear that this situation was getting extremely complicated: the censusnumbers were allotted in small blocks, to make sure that the prefix (e.g. 39) corresponded with the build year. But with so many contracts that were being ordered by now, this system was no longer feasible, it was becoming much too complex…

Instead, a split system for RASC and RAOC vehicles was chosen. The 40 000 until 46 000 numbers were not used up, the 46 000 until 60 000 block was reserved for impressed vehicles etc, and the RASC started with the number 61 001 for their motorcycles, and 150 001 for their four wheeled vehicles. The RAOC started its own sequence with number 4 100 001, census numbers for two- and four wheeled vehicles were mixed up there.

A few months later, the Canadians wanted their own blocks, and 4 200 000 untill 4 299 999 for RAOC and 74 000 until 75 249 for RASC motorcycles (plus other blocks for RASC four wheeled vehicles) were reserved for them.

So it happened that during BSA contract C6654, RAOC census number 4 199 999 was followed by number 4 300 000…

And after RASC census number 258 957 (the 300 000 block was arriving rapidly by then) must have come number 500 000 (in that way, they jumped over the 30 0000 and 40 0000 blocks that were already being used / used up !!!)

After the 500 000 block came the 600 000 block, then 700 000 etc.

Somewhere around Dec ’41 / Jan ’42 (according to my Royal Enfield data), number 1 000 000 was in sight.

From then on, the RASC had to think about another system. Some blocks that had already been used previously were approaching rapidly: two other blocks of Canadian RCASC motorcycle numbers had already been allotted: 1 037 601 until 1 038 300, and 1 039 802 until 1 041 036, and the numbers higher than 1 130 000 had been reserved for (RASC) cars, 1 200 000 upwards are (RASC) ambulances, and there were also blocks for trailers and other oddities… (also some smaller Canadian blocks for RCASC trucks, cars, …)

And there was a (RAOC ??? RASC ???) block from 1 400 000 onwards that was reserved for reconditioned motorcycles. There were similar blocks for reconditioned (RAOC ??? RASC ???) cars (1 500 000), trucks and lorries (1 600 000 and 1 700 000). But there were no numbers higher than 1 800 000 in this series.

So in early 1942, by which time the RAOC numbers must have had reached the 4 600 000 cape, the RASC system was replaced by / integrated in the existing RAOC sequence.

The combined RASC - RAOC sequence continued until shortly after the war, by when it had reached 6 277 376.

Summarised:

- 33-123 : 1933
- 34-123 : 1934
- 34-1234 : 1934
- 35-123 : 1935
- 35-1234 : 1935
- 36-123 : 1936
- 36-1234 : 1936
- 37-123 : 1937
- 37-1234 : 1937
- 37-12345 : 1937
- 38-123 : 1938
- 38-1234 : 1938
- 38-12345 : 1938
- 39-123 : 1939
- 39-1234 : 1939
- 39-12345 : 1939
- 61 000 > 258 957 : RASC 1940 (approximately)
- 500 000 > 1 000 000 : RASC 1941 (approximately)
- 4 1XX XXX : RAOC 1940 onwards
- 4 2XX XXX : Canadian forces
- 4 6XX XXX > 6 2XX XXX: RASC plus RAOC 1942 onwards (approximately)
- Plus some small blocks for impressed vehicles, rebuilt vehicles, …


Regards,
Jan (Numbers Nerd #1)