Location info required (Iceland)

[Keith Webb]

Yesterday I bought an old photo album with some interesting images of British vehicles in, I believe, Iceland during the war.

This pic of Nortons is interesting because of the polar bear logo.

Other pics show carriers, MW Bedfords, and even a Morris Arty Tractor.

Can anyone help with any information?

[Keith Webb]

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Keith Webb
Yesterday I bought an old photo album with some interesting images of British vehicles in, I believe, Iceland during the war.

This pic of Nortons is interesting because of the polar bear logo.

Other pics show carriers, MW Bedfords, and even a Morris Arty Tractor.

Can anyone help with any information?

Hi Keith;

It is Iceland. The 'polar bear logo' is the Formation Sign used by Alabaster Force, of which the British 49th (West Riding) Infantry Division, who were entrusted with the defence of Iceland in 1940, were the main force of. While in Iceland, this was adopted by and became the Formation Sign of the 49th division (1940).

Sub units of the division (147th Infantry Brigade) began arriving in May 1940, with the last sub unit of the division leaving Iceland in August 1942 (146th Infantry Brigade), with the defence of Iceland being turned over to the United States.

The figure '60' (Arm of Service serial) on the petrol tanks of the Nortons denotes that these M/Cs belong to the 1/5th Battalion, The West Yorkshire Regiment (The Prince of Wale's Own) of 147th Infantry Brigade.

Hope this helps Keith.

Cheers

[Keith Webb]

Many thanks, Mark

You're a wellspring of handy information!

I'm planning to do a page on the site about it.

I did a search for Alabaster Force and came up with this excellent site on a chap named John Crook
It's well worth a read. A fascinating and little known chapter of wartime history.

I love finding something and then teasing out more information about it.

Keith

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Keith Webb
This pic of Nortons is interesting because of the polar bear logo.

Other pics show carriers, MW Bedfords, and even a Morris Arty Tractor.

Hi Keith,

Just a small correction, these motorcycles are not Nortons, they are BSA WM20, behind them is an Austin "Tilly". The Bedford in the other photo is a OX 30 cwt. Some good photos with plenty of detail.

Richard

[Rich Payne]

Richard,

You beat me to it. Certainly not Nortons although they were present in Iceland (There is a picture on Rob van den Brink's Norton WD16H website of a similarly marked machine).

If I may be allowed to nit-pick, the bikes (the first two at least) are actually pre-war (1938 model year) KM20 BSAs with the nice (well I think so) valanced rear mudguard and long field stand.

According to Orchard and Madden's book C3914865 and C3914372 were part of contract A9764 which was completed in December 1938

I have seen a thread on another forum showing the restoration of a WM20 found on Iceland so presumably a certain amount of this material remained there when the British withdrew.

By the way, often the easiest way to differentiate WD Nortons in old photos is that they were unusual in having the front brake on the left-hand side (The girder-forked Matchless G3 did as well but it has an ohv engine).

Rich.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Rich Payne

If I may be allowed to nit-pick, the bikes (the first two at least) are actually pre-war (1938 model year) KM20 BSAs with the nice (well I think so) valanced rear mudguard and long field stand.

According to Orchard and Madden's book C3914865 and C3914372 were part of contract A9764 which was completed in December 1938

I have seen a thread on another forum showing the restoration of a WM20 found on Iceland

Rich,

Ahh, I did not check the census numbers. My own WM20, a 1940 model, has the same deep petrol tank, correct for its Contract spec. as well as the long field stand, it would also have had the extra valances on rear mudguards, originally, so visually there is little difference from an early WM model. The deep petrol tank was one designed for an overhead valve engine, from the shape underneath, it has the same capacity as the flatter tank used later on.

I have seen the website of the one in Iceland and seem to remember he also had a deep tank, so obviously an early WM.

Richard

[Keith Webb]

But this one with Norton written on the tank may in fact be a Norton?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Rich Payne
I have seen a thread on another forum showing the restoration of a WM20 found on Iceland so presumably a certain amount of this material remained there when the British withdrew.

Gentleman's Military Interest Club > BSA WM20 1942 Restoration

[Rich Payne]

Originally posted by Keith Webb
But this one with Norton written on the tank may in fact be a Norton?

I'm sure you're right, Keith. In fact I think they put the logo on the leading edge of the tank specially. Could you have a word with the rider and ask him to turn the 'bars a little to the right so that I can read the Census number ? - Unless of course you can read it on the original. I am trying to tie the various modifications in with census numbers (just for my own interest).

The Norton is also quite an early model. It has the large (8") headlamp and the amazingly vulnerable horn-mounting position that soon moved to the front engine mount. It doesn't have the "interim model" steel pannier toolboxes fitted for a while from mid-1940 onwards. This was, of course, prior to the introduction of the WD standardised canvas panniers which were later retro-fitted to earlier machines.

Hanno, Thanks for supplying the other forum info. I wasn't sure if that was in order to mention it, from an etiquette point of view.

Rich.

[Keith Webb]

Hope this helps, Rich...

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Rich Payne
Hanno, Thanks for supplying the other forum info. I wasn't sure if that was in order to mention it, from an etiquette point of view.

Rich, my pleasure. After seeing it mentioned, I wanted to read up on it (I love historic military vehicles with a provenance) so I googled and got a quick hit. I am not aware of any (un)written rules against putting a link to another forum or website. Isn't that one of the great things of the internet?

Hanno

[Rich Payne]

Originally posted by Keith Webb
Hope this helps, Rich...

Thanks ever so much Keith.

Not exactly a text-book example of the signwriter's art is it ? The number appears to be 4153287 but lacks the "C" prefix which I have not previously noted. This number would put it in Contract C.5612 for 4000 machines first demanded in November 1939 and produced in 1940.

The Polar Bear logo is nicely hand-painted as well. It goes to show that we should perhaps not try too hard when restoring. My 1939 16H (from the contract before this one) has the original 2nd Infantry Division "Crossed Keys" painted off-centre from the mudguard rib. I'm going to have to restore it that way but I know it's always going to niggle me.

I have no idea about the other numbers on the mudguard. This contract had frame numbers from 7000 to 10999 so it doesn't relate to that. Now I'll have to check and see if extra numbers appear on the other Iceland photos.

Cheers,

Rich.

[Rich Payne]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Rich, my pleasure. After seeing it mentioned, I wanted to read up on it (I love historic military vehicles with a provenance) so I googled and got a quick hit. I am not aware of any (un)written rules against putting a link to another forum or website. Isn't that one of the great things of the internet?

Hanno

Thanks Hanno,

Perhaps I could mention as well then that Henk Joore's interesting WM20 website also has a photo captioned as Iceland showing both 16Hs and M20s on a quayside. I would suspect on their arrival as they look very clean and no sign of any Polar Bears yet.

Is it just coincidence that both the WD motorcycle websites are run by countrymen of yours ? There must be a national obsession with attention to detail!

Rich.

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by Rich Payne
Thanks Hanno,

Perhaps I could mention as well then that Henk Joore's interesting WM20 website also has a photo captioned as Iceland showing both 16Hs and M20s on a quayside. I would suspect on their arrival as they look very clean and no sign of any Polar Bears yet.

Rich.

Hi Rich

Can you please give us a link to the M20 site?

[Rich Payne]

Originally posted by Keith Webb
Hi Rich

Can you please give us a link to the M20 site?

My apologies, I just thump WM20 into Google. The link is:

http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/ahum/

and just to be fair to the Nortons, the WD models are to be found on:

http://home.tiscali.nl/wd16h/

Rich.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Keith Webb
I love finding something and then teasing out more information about it.

Hi Keith;

Some information regarding Canada's part in the defence of Iceland entitled ""Z" Force in Iceland: An account of the despatch of Canadian Troops to Iceland and their subsequent operations there", can be found here (Army Headquarters Report No. 33, dated 16 December 1949).

Cheers

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Not sure where your pictures went, Keith. Could it be the attached one was part of your batch?

It came to me via-via and the only details given were "CMPs at Iceland".

HTH,
Hanno

[Keith Webb]

Not one of mine - there were no CMPs in the album I had... but there were a few motorbike shots... and carriers which should be appearing in the pics above - will check what's going on.

Have just checked - the pictures should be there - they are in the right location and on the right server - something is awry.

[lynx42]

I'd rather be sitting in a Cab12 than astride a motorcycle. He must have drawn the short straw.