Looking for Deepwater Fording and Wadeproofing CMPs

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

With all of the flooding taking place was wondering about the Deep Water Fording and Wadeproofing intstructions for CMPs .

I've search a little and can only find this thread http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ight=deepwater

There must have been detailed instructions does anybody have a copy they can share?

My C60S Pattern 13 had evidence of extensive waterproofing but was this for storage, wading, or full blown deepwater fording is unknown. Mine still had the hole into the bellhousing on the carb side sealed with cosmoline some kind of fabric. The distributors bottom side was similary covered, along with evidence that the dip stick had been sealed as well.

Today I did a study of the height above ground all of the wheel bearings, transmission, fan etc which once I get it compiled I'll share.

One thing is pretty clear given the choice of driving one of the family cars through 2-3 ft of water it will be the CMP I'll be driving.

Cheers Phil

PS No we are not in any of the recent the flood area but if our area ever got the 10+ inchs of rain the roads coming in would be flooded, we look down on the top of the flood control dam. One road way in is designed for it with a 200 yard wide dead level area at the stream crossing to allow water to go over the road in a wide thin sheet. Worst we have ever seen is 6 inchs deep. The other way out is down grade of the spillway and discharge from the dam and has been washed out a couple of times.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Been working away on understanding deep water or even shallow water fording in CMPs. Surprised that no one seems to have a full manual on this topic.

Started by doing some basic measurements on my Pat 12 C60L which I will share shortly once have them in a format to share. In going through and listing the various components, their height off the ground, susceptibility water entering and most important would water entry stop the truck in short order.

Was very surprised that the first two versions of this list I missed a big one that would stop the truck in fairly short order. Of the would stop the truck it was also the lowest being only 33 inches up.

Any guesses as to what it is?

Cheers Phil

[Wayne Hingley]

I remember my uncle telling me that during the war, in preparation for D-day, he was assigned for many days to waterproof CMP's and Jeeps. He landed himself, I believe driving a CMP on the day after D-day. I recall him describing how disturbing it was to see all of the "debris" in the water as he went to shore.

I will see him in early October, and Ill ask if he remembers any of the details of the waterproofing procedures. He might remember some details, but the stories tend to move quickly through many memories once he starts, so I may not get a complete picture of the waterproofing steps.

[Lang]

I have a full stack of manuals, photos and instructions on preparing vehicles for fording. From the photos it seems to be all done in UK in preparation for D-Day. Keith Webb photographed a bit of my material a few years back but I will scan some originals for the forum.

I will pull them out and put some stuff up.

Seem to remember it involved bucket loads of linseed putty wrapped around everything that could get wet such as electrical, fuel vents etc.

Will follow up.

Lang

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Started with Pat 12 because of these photo

Shows the fairly steep launch down the ramp not something you would be doing with the same truck every day

Probably fairly common operation driving through streams wading for the Pat 12 Fording for the Jeep.


Pat 13 the guys on the roof you got to wonder may have done this a time or two.

I suspect the first and last trucks pictured would get attention after landing, the truck crossing the stream oh just another stream and on with the job.

Cheers Phil

[Wayne Hingley]

The guy standing in the water giving directions, in the last photo seems to be quite "comfortable" with things too!

[motto]

He doesn't seem to be wearing any rank insgnia. I wonder how his authority was indicated, size perhaps?

David

[Lang]

Phil

I have the D.M.E Waterproofing instruction books for the following vehicles. They are about 30 pages each and of course very similar in many respects. Pick the one you want and I will scan the whole thing and put it on this thread.

Tractor, 30-CWT LAA Ford
Canadian Chevrolet C.H.U -441-M-WIRE-1
Lorry, 3-Ton Chevrolet (Long Immersion for driving in Water)
Ambulance, 3-Ton Ford
17 pounder Anti-Tank Equipment
Lorry 3-ton Ford (Long Immersion)
3.7" QF Howitzer
Notes for Officers on waterproofing for Amphibious OPerations
Instructions for wading Field Artillety Equipment
101 Ga;llion Grader
Excavator Ruston-Bucyrus 10RB
Allis Chalmer Crawler HD10
" " " HD14
HD7
International TD18
Caterpillar D2
" D8
6 Pounder Antitank
4.2" Mortar Mobile
4.5/5.5 Gun Howitzer
25 Pounder
Cat D4
Inter TD9
Inter TD14
Cat D6
Cat D7
Chev 3 ton 4X4 GS
Ford F15
Transporter Diamond T 980
Chev 15cwt Wireless
Trailer 7 1/2 ton recovery
Lorry Chev 4X4 GS, Tipper,Slave Battery,LAA, Personnerl c.h.u
Truck 6X6 Wrecker M.1
Lorry 3 Ton Bofors Ford
Trailer Rogers, Crane, Freuhauf
Lorry 3 ton Machinery 4x4
Canadian Chev Compressor/Winch/FAT
Car 4X2 Canadian Ford
Lorry 4 ton Diamond T
Lorry 6x6 Machinery GMC Type A- Interesting "Right Hand Drive"
Lorry 3 ton 6X6 GMC GS
DME Waterproofing Instructions For Contents of Machinery Lorries
Truck 6x6 Wrecking Ward-La-France
Landrover waterproofing 1953

Also dozens of type written pages for the kits for Morris 4x4, Scammell,Windsor Carrier

Lang

[Lang]

Here is a sample

[Lang]

Here is a selection of photos. Most I have are close up shots of various bits of equipment waterproofed in some manner.

[Lang]

It was not just a case of squirt some WD40 on the plugs, put a bag over the radiator and leap into the water.

These instructions for CMP proofing indicate a hell of a lot of time and work.

From the Officers Notes Manual preparation times in man hours:

AEC 4x4 Matador 33
Bedford QL 32
CMP 26-32 Depending on model
Ward La France 44
Jeep 20
Radar AA 350
Bedford Printing Lorry 100
Searchlight Trailer 130
Most Crawlers 60-100
AA and Field Guns 20-65
Carriers 70-90
Tanks 160-286
Scout/armoured cars 87-195



Lang

[Jordan Baker]

Awesome collection of reference material. My personal favorite would be the Chevy Wireless truck stuff. But Im sure when I say this that others would agree..... we would love to see them all.

[Lang]

Here is a photo of one of the testing officers in the collection.

I am taken by how happy and warm he looks after bathing in the balmy waters of the North Sea.

Who in their right mind would choose to live in a cold climate?

Lang

[Lang]

Once you start looking you find more.

It appears most British built vehicles could not be used in amphibious landings. All 4x2 and 6X4 (Except Scammell) were only suitable for dock landings or waiting with the barge stuck like a beached whale until the tide went out to drive across the dry sand.

To show there are military morons throughout the ages we have the wave heights for various vessels. It must have been very disconcerting for barge skippers to be told to go back out to sea by surveyors standing up to their necks in water with their theodolites. "You can't land an LCT (4) as your wave height limit is 2' 11" and we just measured the seventh wave at
3' 1 5/8" "


Lang

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Lang

What a treasure trove information. I suspect that the desires for which one to scan and post will be quite varied. But so as to not impose might I ask that you do two one Ford and one Chevy for the most numerous type the 3 ton 4x4 that will cover 24% of the Canadian Production.

Lorry, 3-Ton Chevrolet (Long Immersion for driving in Water)
Lorry 3-ton Ford (Long Immersion)

From the point of historical value to CMP community it would be nice if all of them in time might be scan and preserved.

Found the picture of the Ford V8 on test stand to be most interesting, what a display to have. Can you imagine hearing and watching as that thing was lowered into a tank of water while it was running.

You also raise some very good information in terms of terminology, I was saying "Deep Water Fording" and "Wade Proofing" you added "Amphibious Operation" do the manuals draw the distinction. I'll add the phrase "Amphibious Operations" to my web search and see if I stir up an more information.

Thanks for responding to my question.

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

I know that I started this thread to talk about CMP deep water fording but this one just has to be mentioned, as the recent storms were the stimulas for starting the thread.

Sorry Hanno I will mention and thread and the photo as a links as the forum it is on claims copy right protection that I will honor.

The thread is https://www.steelsoldiers.com/showth...ne-Rescue-Help



The captions sayes it ran like this for five hours.

Cheers Phil

[Lang]

Phil

I was lucky enough to get this lot back in the mid 70's. I was working in Victoria Barracks (the main HQ in NSW) and heard that the big base vehicle workshop west of Sydney was having a clean out.

I raced out in a ute and got there just as they were loading absolutely full, a truck with all their manuals dating from the 30's - several tons of them! Not just theirs but those from the nearby Ordnance Depot.

I knew the officer in charge of that section well and we both climbed up onto the pile and pulled out only Operators Manuals, Workshop Manuals and Illustrated parts manuals of every type of vehicle the Australian Army had ever operated and many they had not. The cardboard box of waterproofing instructions somehow got saved.

I filled the back of the ute but could not stop tons of books heading to the dump. If I had received earlier notice I knew the system well enough to easily have had the truck leave for the dump and arrive back empty with thousands of manuals diverted from the destruction order to disappear into the mists of the community

Unfortunately I donated maybe 300 manuals to a museum a couple of years later, just keeping a selection of a couple of hundred in my library. The museum failed, I got no phone call, and even today I see my rescued manuals advertised and at swap meets for outrageous prices. Maybe you have one??

As for scanning, these books appear to be very generic inside the covers (I haven't read right through any yet). If that is the case we may be able to achieve the aim with more types by just copying specific vehicle instruction pages to attach to the general section.

I can understand why these manuals are rare as each has the check list tear-out pages and look like they were issued for a specific operation and probably thrown away after the vehicle was prepared.

Lang

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Found the picture of the Ford V8 on test stand to be most interesting, what a display to have. Can you imagine hearing and watching as that thing was lowered into a tank of water while it was running.

Hi Phil,
The photo of the waterproofed engine on the stand is not a Ford V8, it looks to me to be an Austin 4 cyl., either an 8hp or a 10hp.

When I worked in army workshops, one of the longer serving workers told me that they had a display unit once with a Bedford petrol engine in it all waterproofed and the tank was filled with water and the engine started. Think is was taken out for displays.

cheers Richard

[Lang]

Richard

You are right, I think the overhead generator might have thrown Phil off the scent.

The photo is one of many original A4 size original glossies that are in the collection - not printed or copied - so they are very clear.

Lang

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Lang

Richard

You are right, I think the overhead generator might have thrown Phil off the scent.

The photo is one of many original A4 size original glossies that are in the collection - not printed or copied - so they are very clear.

Lang

Hi Lang,
The photo of an instrument panel with sealer all over it is from a Fordson WOT6 and also same vehicle type in icy water up to the windscreen. Very good photos for reference details no doubt. I lucky find. I have the waterproofing instruction for a couple of WW2 British armoured cars, for wading up to 3 feet and there is one heck of a lot of work involved, usually with a specific kit for the vehicle.

[Lang]

I love the caption on this "17 PDR. ON TOW BEHIND A STUART TOWER"

It could be a Rolls Royce on a rope as far as any useful information goes.

Richard can tell us what the partially waterproofed motor is.

[Lang]

More Photos.

What nightmare all these trucks would have been for mechanics after landing. Nobody would have removed any of that putty and goo and it would have baked hard in many cases after months or years in service before someone had to repair a carburetor or track a wire behind the instrument panel.

[Lang]

And some more

[Lang]

Had a quick go at copying a manual.

Non=standard paper size so looks like I will have to pull the staples out and do each page individually - bear with me, a few things on at the moment.

Lang

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Lang

Thanks for the test shots, interesting information.

Understand that this is something you are doing in your spare time, and spare time for most of us is a scares commodity so as you can is well understood.

As the books are a non standard size and hard to scan, hate to see you have to take the books apart. How about just shooting pictures of the pages with digital camera instead. Try one page of text and see if that is easier and quicker.

Test photo of 8.5X11 inch GM Product Review Magazine 1942 shot hand held natural light down sized from 3MB to 991KB to upload to MLU.


PS. Just realized should have converted to Mono or Black and White image but you get the idea.

Thanks again for the effort
Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Hi
Yes now after looking at the photo enlarged I see that I was off by half not a V8 but a inline 4. Interesting to note the liberal use of sealing compound. Interesting that no effort was made to water proof the generator, I had been wondering how you could waterproof open case generators. But then again they are taking a lot of water through the body just driving down the road in a heavy rain. Wonder if they figured that the failure rate from water immersion would be the same or lower than the failure rate from excessive heat for operating the engine with waterproofing in place.

Also back to my post about the What is the lowest component that will stop the engine if goes under water. As I said on my C60S and C60L this component is the lowest that I am seeing that if it goes under water at 33 inchs above ground has the potential to destroy the engine fairly quickly. It is the air intake for the brake booster. My reasoning is that if you hit the brakes with the booster air intake under water the unit will take a full slug of water. When you release the brake the chamber is then vented to the vacuum side. Now the question is will 20-25 inchs of manifold vacuum suck that water directly into the intake manifold.

Cheers Phil

[Lang]

Phil

That manual for the Chev has an unbelievable amount of work for the generator. When I get it up on the site you will see they had to completely disassemble the generator and dip the internal components in varnish.

Will try photos

Lang

[Phil Waterman]

Looking for something else and found this https://youtu.be/l8FD9-JUl1U

Once again it seams I can not embed Youtube Videos, sometimes I can sometimes I can't.

Cheers Phil

[Lang]

Phil

I pulled a book apart. You can sort out the pages. For some reason the full page picture on some scans only came up inverted, you can rotate when/if you copy.

This is NOT the preparation for an amphibious landing, I will put that up next, it is the preparation for Long Immersion Driving eg driver training or some extreme operation. It does give a very good idea of how hard a normal vehicle is to fully waterproof. If they did this to all the vehicles at the time I think they would be ready for the Normandy invasion about Xmas this year.

Lang

[Lang]

First five pages