Re: Sherman Ic

Chris Johnson · #1 23-02-05, 16:04

Does anyone have any evidence of welded hull Sherman Ic's serving in Cdn service in Northwest Europe? I'm not referring to the Hybrid Ic, as photos of those abound. I'm having difficulty putting my hands on a definitive photo of a welded hull Ic though. If you can point me towards a photo in a book, I might well have on my shelf but have forgotten about, I would be most appreciative.

Cheers,

Chris

HaroldLukas · #2 08-03-05, 21:20

Steve Guthrie mentions Sherman Ic's in "The Sherman in Canadian service". On page 5 there is a picture (taken from the rear) of a Sherman Ic with the Fort Garry Horse. Picture was taken on April 25 1945 near Dingstede

Hope this helps
Harold

Chris Johnson · #3 10-03-05, 01:32

The problem with this photo in Steve's book is that as it's taken from the rear and the hull sides are obscured by sapling trees, it's impossible to tell whether this is a welded hull Ic or a Hybrid Ic. As it was taken on 25Apr45, I'm betting that it's a Hybrid Ic.

Cheers,

Chris

servicepub (RIP) · #4 10-03-05, 16:59

Chris,

I'll check at archives to see if there were multiple photos taken. This is often the case and I would choose one that meets the needs of the book and ignore another that may show exactly the detail you seek.

Clive

Larry Hayward · #5 11-03-05, 00:15

Ok it doesn't answer the question but its an interesting photo of a Sherman Hybrid 1C Firefly of the 5th Canadian Armoured Division entering the town of Porten, Holland on 18th April 1945.

Apart from its own tracks it has Churchill tracks for side protection and another unidentified type to protect the driver.

HaroldLukas · #6 11-03-05, 01:25

Here is a picture of a Ic Firefly or so the caption said.
I forgot were I got this picture from. So I do apologize for not giving credit to the person who put it on the internet.

With the picture being taken in Zeeland I think its most likely a canadian tank

tankbarrell · #7 11-03-05, 09:49

The unspecified tracks are also Churchill tracks, they are just the other way up and we are looking at the inside surface.

gcrossley · #8 11-03-05, 20:16

Hi Harold,

That Sherman is from the Fort Garry Horse. In better quality copies you can clearly see the badges on the crew members.

The photo is from the National Archives of Canada, PA 166849 (old number 42128). It is the sister of photo PA 114460 (old number 42127) which shows other tanks of the unit at the same location.

The photos were taken by Ken Bell on 29 October 1944. In 2000, we were able to find the actual location just NW of Reimerswaal at the intersection of A58 and N289 on the attached map.

Gord

HaroldLukas · #9 12-03-05, 11:36

Hi Gord,
Another Fort Garry Horse tank!
On the center of the transmissioncover there seems to be a square. Does that make it a B-squadron tank?
Do you happen to know the census-number?

Kind regards
Harold

Chris Johnson · #10 15-03-05, 03:04

That's the photo I was looking for, and couldn't find! Ken Bell's name sent me looking through his books and the photo appears on page 201 of "The Way We Were". It's also mis-identified as a "tank destroyer Sherman". It's the one photo of a Firefly in Cdn service with a one piece tranny cover and this makes me think it's a Sherman Ic. Knowing that it's a FGH tank is icing on the cake.

Thanks fellows!

Cheers,

Chris

Hanno Spoelstra · #11 18-03-05, 16:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Johnson
It's the one photo of a Firefly in Cdn service with a one piece tranny cover and this makes me think it's a Sherman Ic.

Chris, that´s correct. Many if not most Sherman IC Fireflies were fitted with one piece transmission assemblies. Most have direct vision slots welded over with appliqué armour. The Sherman Is used to built Fireflies were among the last Shermans with 75-mm guns delivered to the British, most of which were early examples. These were rebuilt in the US after having been used for training extensively.

Attached goes another picture of a Sherman IC. Can anyone identify the unit it belongs to? I think it's Czech.

H.

Mark W. Tonner · #12 18-03-05, 17:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Attached goes another picture of a Sherman IC. Can anyone identify the unit it belongs to? I think it's Czech.

Hanno;

It looks like it belongs to the 1st Czech Independent Armoured Brigade (1st Czech Armd Regt - '51' serial on the AoS marking). The Formation sign of the Czech Armd Bde was a blue shield, with a red cross and white lion (see attached black & white image).

Cheers

gcrossley · #13 18-03-05, 18:24

Hi all,

Here is the other picture taken at the crossroads. Note the two transmission cover types.

The National Archives reference is PA 114460 (old number 42127).

Gord

Phil Waterman · #14 18-03-05, 18:38

Not sure if this is Sherman Version you are looking for but by the plaque it served in North Europe into Germany I took the picture at Camp Borden about twenty years ago. http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.com/Friends.html

Chris Johnson · #15 18-03-05, 23:06

Gord,

Although it's only a guess, without being able to see the suspension spread, I'd say that the lead Firefly is a Vc based on the three piece transmission cover. The second one is the Ic as evidenced by the sharp nosed transmission cover.

Cheers,

Chris

gcrossley · #16 19-03-05, 00:11

Hi Chris,

I think the second tank is the same one that is in the photo posted earlier. Note the spare links and track tools on the glacis.

The old picture numbers are sequential as well.

Cheers,

Gord

Hanno Spoelstra · #17 19-03-05, 08:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Johnson
Although it's only a guess, without being able to see the suspension spread, I'd say that the lead Firefly is a Vc based on the three piece transmission cover. The second one is the Ic as evidenced by the sharp nosed transmission cover.

I'd say the same. Also, the lead Firefly does not have appliqué armour, which all Sherman IC Fireflies had.

H.

Hanno Spoelstra · #18 19-03-05, 08:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
It looks like it belongs to the 1st Czech Independent Armoured Brigade (1st Czech Armd Regt - '51' serial on the AoS marking).

Thanks Mark, all I could remember was that it was Czech.

H.

Chris Johnson · #19 23-03-05, 02:34

In looking at the FGH Sherman Ic image in this thread, would I be correct in thinking that the turret is a low bustle example? I see what I think is the loader's hatch stop mounted on the turret roof, which wouldn't appear on a high bustle turret fitted with the oval loader's hatch.

Can anyone take a guess as to whether the bogey trucks have raised return roller arms? I think they are from what I can see but ...

Cheers,

Chris

Hanno Spoelstra · #20 23-03-05, 10:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Johnson
In looking at the FGH Sherman Ic image in this thread, would I be correct in thinking that the turret is a low bustle example? I see what I think is the loader's hatch stop mounted on the turret roof, which wouldn't appear on a high bustle turret fitted with the oval loader's hatch.

Can anyone take a guess as to whether the bogey trucks have raised return roller arms? I think they are from what I can see but ...

Chris, the Sherman IC most likely had a low bustle turret, as it's quite an early Sherman (note the direct vision slots). Unless the return roller arms were badly damaged and had to be replaced upon remanufacturing by raised return roller arms, they would be of the straight type for the same reason.

H.

Chris Johnson · #21 23-03-05, 13:26

In going through Hayward's book and any other Polish and British Sherman Ic photos I can find, I tend to agree with you that the return roller brackets are level but when you look at that first bogey truck, it does make one wonder if it's a raised return roller. However, it could be just the angle of the camera too. At any rate, I've satisfied myself that I'm seeing a low bustle turret and I'll go with straight return roller arm brackets. I may even take a flyer on it having open spoked road wheels too.

Cheers,

Chris

Hanno Spoelstra · #22 26-03-05, 21:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Larry Hayward
Ok it doesn't answer the question but its an interesting photo of a Sherman Hybrid 1C Firefly of the 5th Canadian Armoured Division entering the town of Porten, Holland on 18th April 1945.

This photo is from the National Archives of Canada It is no. PA-131043 and is captioned "Canadian tanks moving through Putten, [Holland, on way to Zuider Zee, 18 April 1945.]" Peter Brown noted it has been identified as 8th Princess Louise (New Brunswick) Hussars (5th Armoured Regiment).

H.

Crewman · #23 29-03-05, 11:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Johnson
In going through Hayward's book and any other Polish and British Sherman Ic photos I can find...

Chris,

If you are looking for various data on the subject of Polish Shermans IC I may recommend you three books published in Poland. The first of them is double-language Polish-English so you will have the same information as the Polish readers of this book. This is the monograph of the Polish 4th Armoured Regiment belonged to Polish 2nd Armoured Brigade of Polish 2nd Corps in Italy.

The book has two titles -- Polish and English one:

Zbigniew Lalak
Pu³k 4. Pancerny "Skorpion"
Regiment 4th Armoured "Scorpion"
Pegaz-bis, Warszawa 2003
Pegaz-bis Publishing House, Warsaw 2003
ISBN 83-911863-3-4

Review of this book by Peter Brown
http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.co...ks/pb/p4ps.htm

Online purchase of this book
http://militarymodeling.com/pages/on...story_cat=Book
http://www.motorbooks.co.uk/showsect...d=260&pageno=4
http://www.helion.co.uk/product.php?...9bf9da8dea091f

Next two books are "Polskie Shermany Vol. I" ("Polish Shermans Vol. I") and "Polskie Shermany Vol. II" ("Polish Shermans Vol. II"). These books have English summaries as well as images descriptions.

Online purchase of these books
http://www.helion.co.uk/section.php?xSec=105180
http://www.motorbooks.co.uk/showsect...d=261&pageno=4

Best regards

C.

Crewman · #24 01-04-05, 23:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Johnson
In going through Hayward's book and any other Polish and British Sherman Ic photos I can find...

Well…, I researched it much longer, deeper, better. Certainly the Sherman ICs were used by the following Polish units:

1. Pu³k U³anów Krechowieckich
(1st Krechowiecki Ulans Regiment) -- MTO, Polish 2nd Corps

4. Pu³k Pancerny "Skorpion"
(4th Armoured Regiment "The Scorpion") -- MTO, Polish 2nd Corps

6. Pu³k Pancerny "Dzieci Lwowskich"
(6th Armoured Regiment "The Children of Lwow") -- MTO, Polish 2nd Corps

1. Pu³k Pancerny
(1st Armoured Regiment) -- ETO, Polish 1st Armoured Division, Canadian 2nd Corps

2. Pu³k Pancerny
(2nd Armoured Regiment) -- ETO, Polish 1st Armoured Division, Canadian 2nd Corps

24. Pu³k U³anów
(24th Ulans Regiment) ETO, Polish 1st Armoured Division, Canadian 2nd Corps

Sources:

Zbigniew Lalak
Polish Armoured Forces. Organisation and Order of Battle
Pegaz-Bis & O.K. Media, Warsaw 2005
ISBN 83-911863-9-3

Wojciech J. Gawrych, Wojciech £uczak
Polskie Shermany (Polish Shermans), Vol. I
Wydawnictwo Militaria, Warsaw 2000
ISBN 83-7219-097-6

Janusz Ledwoch
Polskie Shermany (Polish Shermans), Vol. II
Wydawnictwo Militaria, Warsaw 2003
ISBN 83-7219-173-5

Zbigniew Lalak
Pu³k 4. Pancerny "Skorpion" (4th Armoured Regiment "The Scorpion")
Pegaz-bis, Warsaw 2003
ISBN 83-911863-3-4

DaveCox · #25 03-04-05, 09:09

As soon as you mention Sherman 1c most modellers think of the hybrid hull so I've been following this thread with interest - and come up with this:

Chris Johnson · #26 04-04-05, 16:35

Your model of an Ic looks very good Dave.

In looking at the driver's hatch in the image Gord posted above, I see a periscope guard mounted on it. When combined with other features on the tank, I'm of the opinion that this is probably a rebuilt tank.

As the hatch is in the open position and not laying flat, it also indicates to me that it has an external spring. Would that spring lay flat against the hatch in the open position, or would it be at an angle to it?

Cheers,

Chris

DaveCox · #27 04-04-05, 18:32

Chris, in a way all 17pdr equipped tanks were rebuilds in that standard tanks were shipped over from the US and then had the 17pdr fitted over in the UK.
The drivers hatches perhaps should have had periscope guards fitted on my model, but I don't have any left in my spares box at the moment and they're too fiddly to scratchbuild!
The springs, if fitted, would lie flat when closed and stand at an angle when the hatch is open.

Crewman · #28 20-04-05, 11:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Larry Hayward
Ok it doesn't answer the question but its an interesting photo of a Sherman Hybrid 1C Firefly of the 5th Canadian Armoured Division entering the town of Porten, Holland on 18th April 1945.

Apart from its own tracks it has Churchill tracks for side protection and another unidentified type to protect the driver.

Hi Larry,

The tank at your pic has very interesting barrel. Is it the same tank as can be seen at this modeller link?

Any comments about this interesting barrel? Theoretically I know that the Fireflies barrels were camouflaged in this manner none the less the pics of the tanks with these barrels are rather rare.

Best regards

C.