Norrey-en-Bessin on June 9, 1944

[Wolfkin]

Hello!

For a very long time I have been interested in an event that happened on June 9, 1944 near Norrey-en-Bessin. The 3rd Panzerkompanie of SS Panzerregiment 12 was advancing with 12 Panthers when they were taken in the flank by very effective fire that quickly knocked out 7 of the 12 Panthers. It seems that various sources can not agree on which unit was the unit that engaged the Panthers on that day. I have read that it was the Sherbrooke Fusiliers, that it was C Squadron of the First Hussars, that it was the Fort Garry Horse and that it was C Squadron of the Elgin Regiment (25th Armoured Delivery Regiment). The truth would be that it could only have been one of these units, but which one? Would anyone have anymore information on this engagement?

Thank you in advance!

Cheers,

Wolfkin

AKA

Jon Fitzgerald
Calgary,AB,Canada

[Waycool]

Hi Jon

Read this extensive thread at Canuck relating to some odds and sods about the engagement.

The thread:

Canuck Forum 1st Hussar link


Cheers

Michael

[Wolfkin]

Hello Michael!

Thank you very much for that link! Lots of interesting information there and it is comforting to know that I am not the only one that has been perplexed by this engagement! I didn't realize that the website of fellow Calgarian, Michael Dorosh, had such a good Forum...shame on me! I have utilized that website several times for information but never looked at the Forum. Thank you again!

Cheers,

Jon Fitzgerald
Calgary,AB,Canada

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Wolfkin
Hello Michael!

Thank you very much for that link! Lots of interesting information there and it is comforting to know that I am not the only one that has been perplexed by this engagement! I didn't realize that the website of fellow Calgarian, Michael Dorosh, had such a good Forum...shame on me! I have utilized that website several times for information but never looked at the Forum. Thank you again!

Cheers,

Jon Fitzgerald
Calgary,AB,Canada

Hello Jon...

Yes, Mike Dorosh runs a pretty good operation, and he's a personal friend. Our people post back and forth on each other's forums, so we're really covering two different bases on any given issue!

Regards your question there's a fellow here by the name of Mark Tonner who might be able to provide you with more info, as he has most of the regimental histories... he's really our resident historical expert. I'm sure he'll pick up on this thread shortly.

Geoff

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Wolfkin
For a very long time I have been interested in an event that happened on June 9, 1944 near Norrey-en-Bessin. The 3rd Panzerkompanie of SS Panzerregiment 12 was advancing with 12 Panthers when they were taken in the flank by very effective fire that quickly knocked out 7 of the 12 Panthers. It seems that various sources can not agree on which unit was the unit that engaged the Panthers on that day.

Hi Jon;

The 3rd Kompanie's attack was launched at 1230hrs, the Canadian armour that would have engaged them would have been "C" Sqn, 6th Cdn Armd Regt (1H). Earlier in the day, a composite Sqn of the Sherbrooke's had engaged a Panther Kompanie to the south-east of Bretteville, with similar results as that of the 1st Hussars later in the afternoon. Hope this answers your question.

Cheers

[Crewman]

Originally posted by Wolfkin
For a very long time I have been interested in an event that happened on June 9, 1944 near Norrey-en-Bessin. The 3rd Panzerkompanie of SS Panzerregiment 12 was advancing with 12 Panthers when they were taken in the flank by very effective fire that quickly knocked out 7 of the 12 Panthers. It seems that various sources can not agree on which unit was the unit that engaged the Panthers on that day. I have read that it was the Sherbrooke Fusiliers, that it was C Squadron of the First Hussars, that it was the Fort Garry Horse and that it was C Squadron of the Elgin Regiment (25th Armoured Delivery Regiment). The truth would be that it could only have been one of these units, but which one? Would anyone have anymore information on this engagement?

Hi,

Professor Reginald H. Roy described it very well in his book "1944 - The Canadians in Normandy", Macmillan of Canada, Ottawa 1984, ISBN 0-7715-9796-7, pages 33-35.

But, if I am not mistaken, Canadian success of Norrey-en-Bessin was a "team work" also with participation of the Reginas as well as 3rd Anti-Tank Regiment RCA.


Best regards

C.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Crewman
Professor Reginald H. Roy described it very well in his book "1944 - The Canadians in Normandy", Macmillan of Canada, Ottawa 1984, ISBN 0-7715-9796-7, pages 33-35.

But, if I am not mistaken, Canadian success of Norrey-en-Bessin was a "team work" also with participation of the Reginas as well as 3rd Anti-Tank Regiment RCA.

Hi Gregory;

The above mentioned is true, but in relation to the question regarding the Panthers of the 3rd Kompanie, it was the tanks of the 1st Hussars that they were engaged by, when the 3rd Kompanie launched their attack on the afternoon of 9 June.

Cheers

[Crewman]

Hello Mark!

Yes, of course, you are right, Roy writes more generally about this episode though his thread of the 1st Hussars is identical as you presented. According to him no doubts that successful tank regiment against the Panthers was 1st Hussars. That is why so interesting is first Wolfkin's post indicating that there are the problems to identify correctly who fought against whom at Norrey-en-Bessin. In the Polish threads Roy is not so perfect and he added us three(?) armoured brigades at Normandy whereas we had only one belonging to the Polish 1st Armoured Division.

Best regards

C.

[John McGillivray]

Dose any one have another the source for the engagement by the Sherbrooke Fusiliers on the morning of 9th June? The only one I know about is the one in the history of The Royal Canadian armoured Corps by Marteinson and McNorgan. It reads as followers: (p244)

“On the morning of 9 June a composite Sherbrooke squadron under Major Vincent Walsh was sent out on a raid to the southeast of Bretteville l’Orgueilleuse. Soon after setting out, a company of twelve Panthers was spotted advancing rapidly across the open fields toward Norrey-en-Bessin, then held by a single company of the Regina Rifles. The Sherbrooke gunners quickly brought this foray to a halt, knocking out seven Panthers in quick order. Later in the day, 'C' Squadron of the Hussars had similar good shooting against another attack by German tanks just west of Bretteville:

“Trooper A. Chapman, crack gunner in Lieut. G.K. Henry's tank, established a bridgehead record. When six tanks penetrated his position he held his fire until all were visible; then with Tpr. 'Sass' Seaman slapping the rounds into the 17-pdr.... He fired five times. Five rounds - five Panthers. Before he got to the sixth one, another "C" Sqn. tank, commanded by Sgt. Boyle, had accounted for it.”

There is no reference to any tank battles on the morning of 9th June in Hubert Mayer’s, Craig Luther’s, or Herbert Walter’s books on the history of the 12th SS. They cover the attacks by 1st and 4th Companies on the night of 8/9th June and the attack of 3rd company in the early afternoon, but have nothing occurring between these two attacks.

To me it appears that all three Armoured Regiments in 2nd CAB were claiming credit for the destruction of the 3rd company.

The response posted by Bill Alexander on the Canuck site appears to be the most logical one I have seen.

Vanguard, the history of the Fort Garry Horse in the Second World War has an appendix, which contains the following description of the Bretteville L'Orgueilleuse action. Major C.D.A.Tweedle was designated as first reinforcement in May of 1944 and was the officer bringing replacement tanks to the Fort Garry's, 1st Hussars and Sherbrooke Fusiliers Regt.He was a Fort Garry officer, and the first reinforcement unit appears to have been a composite unit made up of all three 2nd Armd Bde units and the Elgins. The following is a direct quote of his report on the action (pg 126-127 of Vanguard):
We reported to Major Marks of C Sqn 1st Hussars and on the 8th June and held a defensive position. On the morning of 9th June, I was ordered to take two troops south to the area just east of Bray overlooking Rots and Rosel as tank busting equipment had been seen by the Tac R in that area. Nothing was seen by us, and at noon the rest of the squadron came up and we proceded to Bretteville L'Orgueilleuse, when we were ordered back by Brig to high ground I was on at noon. On retiring, a Lt with a depleted company stopped one of the troop officers and said he had to go into Bretteville and secure it as their Bn HQ, and had been isolated by infiltration. We called up the Brig, and got permission. Our plan was this:two troops of tanks on the right,one in the centre to proceed into the town with the infantry and three on the left (we had six troops, our two (FGH)on the left.) We got down the Bretteville-Caen road with no trouble and put the infantry into the town. We were busily "brassing up" Norrey en Bessin, and an ammo train at the station (Cross fire with co-ax etc in a good hull down position), when I noticed a hell of a big tank with a long gun pass our front about 900 yds away and going at a good speed. We called up and told the right troops about it. When low and behold six "Panthers" came up to the crest in orderly fashion and slowly , about 850-1050 yds range. We let them have it and knocked the six without them firing a shot at us or traversing their guns in our direction. We thought there were only five but found we had knocked out six on later inspection. The right troops got the lead tank, which no doubt a lot of the Regiment saw on the road between Bretteville and Norrey; our Garry tanks accounted for three. We later found a company of Regina Rifles had been isolated out there and over-run; these men were saved by our action. ... So there you have an action where nine Shermans took on eleven Panthers, knocked out seven and routed four without loss from a range as stated above. (Lt Henry of the 1st Hussars had a 17pr). The crew commanders I can remember were Sgt Graham and Sgt Chadioisky. My gunner was Tpr Bennett W.L. and loader Tpr Argue R.D.: The boys of the other tanks claimed Bennett and Argue got off three rounds before any of the others fired. Bennett's first shot out of out tank knocked out a Panther at 850 yds, the second shot missed the tank aimed at and hit another, it exploded and blew off the turret.
Capt Tweedle was awarded a MC, a periodic award, which is partly due to this action.

[Wolfkin]

Hello all!

Thank you all for your responses!

This is also where things get quite confusing for me! I have checked Fields Of Fire by Terry Copp, The Royal Canadian Armoured Corps by the RCAC Association, The Panzers And The Battle Of Normandy by Georges Bernage, Steel Inferno by Michael Reynolds and The History Of The 12th SS Panzer Division by Hubert Meyer. None of these sources can seem to agree on this engagement.

It does make me wonder if there was actually only one engagement on June 9, 1944 and that perhaps this engagement is being treated as if two engagements happened? This composite squadron is interesting. It seems there were troops from all of the regiments of the Canadian 2nd Armoured Brigade in this composite squadron. Confusing indeed! One thing is for certain though, the Canadians got the better of this round, that's for sure!

Cheers,

Jon Fitzgerald
Calgary,AB,Canada

[Crewman]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
Dose any one have another the source for the engagement by the Sherbrooke Fusiliers on the morning of 9th June? The only one I know about is the one in the history of The Royal Canadian armoured Corps by Marteinson and McNorgan.

Hi John

When it comes to Norrey-en-Bessin also Maj.-Gen. Harry W. Foster mentions it in his memoirs I quoted several times at the MLU. The same goes for "Bloody Victory" by the historians J. L. Granatstein and Desmond Morton. Today and tomorrow I am very busy but in the weekend to come I will check if I would be able to add something interesting to your and Mark's posts.

Best regards

C.

[Wolfkin]

Hello!

I will be looking forward to any further information regarding this engagement Crewman!

Cheers,

Jon Fitzgerald
Calgary,AB,Canada

[Crewman]

About Bretteville/Norrey-en-Bessin region action.

These are Maj.-Gen. Harry W. Foster, Lt.-Col. Foster Matheson and SS-Brigadeführer Kurt Meyer's viewpoints. The quotation from Tony Foster's "Meeting of Generals":
---------------------------------------------------------


"As the force neared Bretteville and the shooting started, Kurt Meyer sent a few of the tanks ahead to smash through the Canadian lines. Sectors of the Regina Rifles were overrun in the first collision of combat. A few Panthers pushed to within 300 yards of the Battalion HQ in Bretteville. But the Reginas held. Unknowingly, he had led his force directly into the strongest part of the Canadian line. German casualties mounted quickly".

Originally written by SS-Brigadeführer Kurt Meyer

Haupsturmführer von Buettner, CO of the 15th Company, was shot off the top of his tank. He fell on the road to the edge of the ditch… I was in close combat with a machine gun which lay in position behind a small tank. My driver, Behlke, was shot through the stomach. I was on fire because of leaking petrol. My comrades of the 15th Company quenched the fire. The village of Norrey-en-Bessin had been heavily occupied and in spite of 3rd Battalion of the 27th Regiment pushing on both sides of the railway up to Norrey and the adjacent Battalion reaching a point west of Bretteville. My own group was too weak to hold on for the next day. I resolved to pull back my troops to the heights at Rots in the early morning hours. The young soldiers don't hate their enemies. They are filled with respect for his fighting spirit.

Source:
Tony Foster
Meeting of Generals
Authors Choice Press, Lincoln 1986
ISBN 0-595-13750-4
Page 322

Originally written by Lt.-Col. Foster Matheson

22 Panthers circled about Battalion HQ and A Company's position during the night. It is hard to picture the confusion which existed. Contact with all but D Company was lost. Fires and flares lit up the area and the enemy several times appeared to be convinced that opposition had ceased. A foolhardy German dispatch rider rode through Bretteville on a captured Canadian motorcycle, only to be brought down by the CO's Sten gun. Some time later a German officer drove his Volkswagen up before Battalion HQ, dismounted and gazed about for a few seconds until an excited PIAT gunner let fly with a bomb which hit him squarely.

Source:
Tony Foster
Meeting of Generals
Authors Choice Press, Lincoln 1986
ISBN 0-595-13750-4
Page 322

Originally written by Maj.-Gen. Harry W. Foster

The [German] attacks were launched without any semblance of tactical sense. The flanks of the Battalion were exposed and the position almost isolated. In such a case where a carefully conceived flank attack might have been deadly, the enemy flung himself straight against the strongest points and utterly failed to exploit the weakness of my positions. It wasn't very bright.

Source:
Tony Foster
Meeting of Generals
Authors Choice Press, Lincoln 1986
ISBN 0-595-13750-4
Page 322

[Waycool]

The action by The Regina Rifles is one of my favorite reads. The vaunted Waffen SS released a major attack and our John's dealt with them in what ranks as some of the finest IMHO close combat actions fought during the Normandy Campaign.

Cardonville Farm is one of the most interesting actions.

At 0430 hours 8 or 10 German tanks withdrew from Bretteville to harbour a short distance away. The Germans were totally unaware that they had located themselves in D Company's area at Cardonville Farm. The Company commander, Gordon Brown, relates that when he had taken over the farm earlier, he decided to make the best possible defensive use of its large stone farmhouse and the thick stone walls that surrounded it and the outbuildings. There was a small apple orchard behind the barn and the rear portion of the wall. There, he located two anti-tank guns to cover the open ground, west towards Putot. From that position also, the artillery forward observation officer (FOO) could maintain radio contact with his guns from his Bren gun carrier. A three-inch mortar was sited there also, and a platoon of infantry was assigned the area to provide defence from the rear. The men set to work knocking holes in the walls for rifle and machine gun positions, digging slit trenches for cover, and stocking up on ammunition. Although the company had lost a number of weapons in the first two days of action, they had acquired many captured German machine guns and German ammunition. However, the greatest problem that the company faced was fatigue. The men had been going for more than three days without sleep, and the strain of the landing and the advance inland was beginning to take its toll. The local people had remained in the farm buildings despite warnings about the dangers of staying. They had dug a bomb shelter in the front courtyard and had been using it for some time. A railway line ran right past the front stone wall. Trains using the line had come under attack, and a disabled train sat on the tracks 100 yards to the left of the company position. In the early evening of June 8 German tanks crossed the railway line in front of the farm and plunged into the area between C and D Company on their way to Bretteville, completely ignoring C Company in Norrey and D Company at the farm. The tanks moved on towards the battalion headquarters position in the town 1,000 yards behind D Company apparently unaware that anyone was occupying the farm. Brown relates that it was easy to carry out the apparently incredible order he had been given by the Battalion commander to ignore the tanks. However, he decided to see if he could turn his anti-tank weapons around and aim them at the now vulnerable German armour. On running to the orchard he was able to count about 10 tanks in the coloured glow of a Verey light which had been fired from Bretteville. Brown found the FOO in his Bren gun carrier in exhausted sleep. He shook him awake and asked him to get in touch with his Regiment or with battalion headquarters on the gunner net. The FOO tried his radio but could get nothing but static. Thankfully, there had been no infantry to follow-up the German armoured attack, but after pounding Bretteville, the tanks returned to the area near D Company's position at the farm. Brown was able to make out at least six tanks at the corners and the sides of the orchard. None of them were more than 75 feet from his position. He decided to remain quiet so as to not reveal his position, and prepared a quick attack on each tank simultaneously. Any precipitous action on the part of the soldiers defending the orchard would have invited disaster, and the men were cautioned not to fire on the tanks since rifles and machine guns were useless against them. Brown then headed back to the house to organize three-man tank hunting teams inside the walls. As he was doing so, he heard a sudden burst of automatic fire in the orchard. Two tank commanders had dismounted in the darkness only a few feet from Corporal W. Ritchie who could not resist the opportunity. Although he killed both, he himself was killed and the German tanks roared into action. They machine-gunned the slit trenches causing many casualties, and destroyed the anti-tank guns and the vehicles. The exploding shells set the barn and hay on fire, lighting up the whole area as bright as day and creating a terrific heat. One of the tanks began to batter down the heavy wooden gate near the barn, but with no infantry to support it, the tank left off, unwilling to chance what might be inside. D Company's casualties mounted, and they were soon down to about 50 all ranks. The tanks circled the walls of the farm, firing, but still not coming inside. Finally, as first light broke through, the tanks withdrew fearing Typhoon planes would arrive from England. It was an hour or so after this that the German infantry arrived. Brown was having a difficult time trying to keep the men of his company awake because they were now entering the fourth day without sleep. Finally, he was able to establish communications with battalion headquarters at Bretteville and to report his situation to Matheson. The company needed artillery support and fast. The artillery commander of 13 Field Regiment (of which 44 Battery from Prince Albert, was a part) was standing right beside Matheson when the frantic call came in and he was able to call down fire almost immediately. Dozens of shells impacted 50 to 200 yards in front of D Company's position, and the Germans, caught in the open, were forced to withdraw. All the companies of the Battalion had once again held their ground, and there were no further German attacks on their positions. That night, unit positions were strengthened, patrols were sent out, and the groggy men were able to snatch a few hours sleep.


Source Stewart A.G. Mein, Up the Johns! The Story of the Royal Regina Rifles. The Senate of The Royal Regina Rifles, Turner-Warwick Publications, North Battleford, Saskatchewan, 1992.

Note: The "Johns" (or "Farmer Johns") is the nickname of the Regina Rifles.

For more info this link has further accounts.



The Regina Rifles


Up the Johns!

[Crewman]

Michael,

What a beautiful PanOceanic cooperation!
We collected pretty nice story from our books

Thanks for below explanation. I did not know this nickname of the Reginas.

Originally posted by Waycool
Note: The "Johns" (or "Farmer Johns") is the nickname of the Regina Rifles.

Best regards

C.

[Crewman]

And one more interesting fragment:

Originally written by Jack L. Granatstein & Desmond Morton

On the morning of June 9th, in fact, tanks of the Fort Garry Horse, attached to the 1st Hussars and supporting the Reginas, caught a column of panzers in line in the open and destroyed them. "We got down the Bretteville-Caen road, with no trouble and put the infantry into the town," the Squadron commander of the Fort Garrys wrote shortly before he himself was killed in action, "… when I noticed a hell of a big tank with a long gun pass our front about 900 yards away and going at a good speed. We called up and told the right troops about it, when lo and behold six Panthers came up the crest in orderly fashion. We let them have it and knocked out the six, without them firing a shot at us or traversing their guns in our direction… We later found out a Company of Regina Rifles (at Norrey) had been isolated out there and overrun; these men were saved by our action." The officer added, "We finished off half our D-Day bottle (which I had carefully guarded for weeks for such an occasion) and retired to high ground."

It was a rare day when a Sherman tank could knock out a Panther, and the Fort Garry's success occurred because the German tanks had been hit on their lightly armoured sides. Some Shermans, the Fireflies, were armed with 17-pounder guns and could penetrate Panther armour at 600 yards; the ordinary 75mm Sherman shell literally bounced off the Panther.

Source:
Jack L. Granatstein & Desmond Morton
Bloody Victory: Canadians and the D-Day Campaign 1944
Lester & Orpen Dennys Ltd., Toronto 1984
ISBN 0-88619-046-0
Page 66

"... tanks of the Fort Garry Horse, attached to the 1st Hussars..." --> maybe this sentence is a reason of the controversy which regiment destroyed the Panthers then? What do you think?

Best regards

C.

[John McGillivray]

Here is a photo showing three of the 3rd Company Panthers KOed on the 9th of June. The photo is by Michael Dean and was taken on the 8th of July. The photo is from the National Archives of Canada and is either PA-162713 or PA-162714.

http://www.agencephotosmemorial.com/...83-IMG0075.jpg

Source

http://www.agencephotosmemorial.com/index.asp

[Crewman]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
Here is a photo showing three of the 3rd Company Panthers KOed on the 9th of June. The photo is by Michael Dean and was taken on the 8th of July. The photo is from the National Archives of Canada and is either PA-162713 or PA-162714.

http://www.agencephotosmemorial.com/...83-IMG0075.jpg

Source

http://www.agencephotosmemorial.com/index.asp

Fantastic!

Looks like destroying by 17-pd machine gun

Either this combat was so fierce or this tank served later on as a training target. There are at least 12 hits in extremely good concentration.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Crewman
Either this combat was so fierce or this tank served later on as a training target. There are at least 12 hits in extremely good concentration.

Hi Gregory;

It may not be the same Panther, but yes, afterwards they were used for PIAT training by Canadian Infantrymen.

Cheers

[Wolfkin]

Hello guys!

Sorry for not replying sooner, it was a long busy week at the plant, sure glad the weekend is here! Thanks for all the further information in this thread and the great pictures! This is some great stuff!

I think all the battles from June 7 to June 9, 1944 in Normandy involving the Canadians are interesting. I also think that many sources paint the wrong picture about these battles and do not give the Canadians the proper amount of credit.

All of the German counterattacks toward the beaches fell on the British and Canadian sectors, 21st Panzer Division against the British and 12th SS Panzer Division against the Canadians. The major share of the fighting fell upon the shoulders of the soldiers of the British and Canadian units.

Cheers,

Jon Fitzgerald
Calgary,AB,Canada