LPG fuel around the world...

[Howard]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

(from This Thread)
...The past decade or so the use of LPG in newly sold cars has been overshadowed by diesel, but LPG is working on a come back with all the "green" discussions going on. I have a new Citroën which runs on LPG. After the first 10.000 km the oil is as clean as on day one. And I love it running my car on what is basically a waste product....

Hanno,
I find your comments interesting, as I am passionate about LPG as a fuel. I am interested to know what is going on with LPG and the thoughts of other MLU'ers in other parts of the world...
I reckon every vehicle in Australia (and the world!) should run on LPG. We have massive reserves of it, conversion is affordable, and LPG is affordable, and it's 'greener' than other fuels...
I have a used 10 year old Fairlane 4.0 litre which for you readers over the waters, is a very large luxury sedan. It has over 220,000km on the clock. On a trip last weekend to see my Sister (1200km round trip) it cost me around $50 to travel around 550km.
Or, to be precise, 68 litres of LPG = $47.60 = 548km ($8.68/100km)
Compared to ULP, 68 litres of ULP = $115.60 = 650km ($17.78/100km)
Which makes my car cheaper to fuel, service & maintain than a Corolla, and still have 160kW & 360Nm-ish on tap.
And if someone tells you that LPG is a pain because of backfires etc, tell them to find an LPG mechanic who knows what they are doing.
The 'second' Blitz project I have (the F60S) I plan to use quite regularly, and therefore it will be powered by a Windsor 5.0 litre, and will definitely run on dedicated LPG!
I guess right now I should mention that I manage a workshop that specialises in LPG conversions..
We get our LPG Vapor Sequential Injection parts from Italy, the quality of the product is very high.
We also fit LPG assist to Diesel vehicles, but that's a whole new story...

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

We have an increasing number of LPG stations here. However sometimes buyers are put off by the rigmarole of fueling. We also have/had CNG or Compressed Natural Gas used by local buses. This is just ordinary gas from the network compressed and stored in a vehicle tank. LPG is taxed much lower than petrol or diesel but has less calorific value so a car that does say 35 miles per gallon (Imperial) may just do 20 or so. Of course you also need petrol to start the engine, although combuned the range increases dramatically as you can switch from on fuel to the other on the road.

Regrettably all gas-tank equipped vehicles are banned from the Channel Tunnel so that means going by ferry. However gas-powereds are I think exempt from the London Congestion Charge.

Our local Supermarket has just started offering Biodiesel which is good news.

[rob love]

The Cdn Department of national Defense tried using it in the 80s, and it was finally dropped as the overall cost of the project was exorbitant, and the reliability in our cold climate was poor. I used to have to go recover cars which a pilot would park for 2 hours while he took a flight, and we would finally have to tow them indoors and leave them to get them to start. Temps were in the -25 range, but that is the fact of life here on the prairies.

While the fuel is basically a salvage from the refining processes, it did not take long for the cost of that fuel to reach, and even exceed, gasoline.

[Phil Waterman]

Don't know about the rest of the world but I suspect that LPG may become the only practical answer for antique cars in the US. Though I can find no documentation for it I suspect that gasoline in the US is moving toward a blend that will only work with fuel injection. There have been a number of attempts over the years to get all the old POLUTING cars off the road, regulatory attempts such as requiring all vehicles (regardless of age) to pass the pollution test etc.

If you think that they would just change the blend so that it will not work in a carburetor just think about. The change the blend taking out lead as a valve lubricant, started adding alcohol to the point where it will eat fuel system rubber parts, change the characteristic so that gas burns hotter. All of these things have been done without care for the effect on antique cars.

I was going to ask what the outcome of the Canadian Military experiment was, so thanks Rob for that information. Rob do you know of any detail information about that effort that is available to the public.

So looking at LPG as an alternative is very logical. At one point Toyota had a LPG system for their industrial engines similar to the Chevy 6, so I think there are alternatives the question is going to be matching the RPM and Torque Curves along with the CFM flows.

[Phil Waterman]

Question- How far can you go on one of the barbecue tanks?

[rob love]

You'll have to change the BBQ tank from pounds to gallons. The LPG generally got about 5% to 10% less mileage than gasoline, with the exception of the Ford inline 6, which got terrible results.

I don't have any data re the total cost to the forces, but it is regarded as an expensive failed experiment. I have seen some total cost of it all somewhere, but don't recall where.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Howard

I find your comments interesting, as I am passionate about LPG as a fuel. ...
I reckon every vehicle in Australia (and the world!) should run on LPG. We have massive reserves of it, conversion is affordable, and LPG is affordable, and it's 'greener' than other fuels...

Originally Posted by David Hayward

Our local Supermarket has just started offering Biodiesel which is good news.

Sorry, Howard, I have to support David here and say Biodiesel is a much cleaner fuel. I've now clocked over 75,000kms on the Cruiser on a combination of homemade and commercial Bio, and homemade conversion using waste Cooking Oil is well below the cost of LPG!

Diesel fuels aren't really relevant to old MVs, but since the 60's there has been a shift to Diesel powered vehicles, including Multi-Fuel, the specs for which includethe use of Avtur and Biodiesel. Can't wait until the M1030M1 comes on the Surplus market!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

For comparison, today´s prices in Holland:

Petrol (Euro 95) EUR 1,54
Diesel EUR 1,32
LPG EUR 0,69

... and mind you, these are per litre(!)

[cletrac (RIP)]

I checked the prices in town today. Gas is $1.21 and propane is $1.01. With a 15% loss in efficiency there's no savings to be had but that can change.

[Howard]

Originally Posted by cletrac

I checked the prices in town today. Gas is $1.21 and propane is $1.01. With a 15% loss in efficiency there's no savings to be had but that can change.

Is that per Litre?
HH

[Howard]

An update on LPG
From what I can gather there is a new compliance law coming into effect in Europe regarding low temp operations. Called "R115" can anyone shed some light on this?
HH

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Howard

From what I can gather there is a new compliance law coming into effect in Europe regarding low temp operations. Called "R115" can anyone shed some light on this?

Howard, I googled the following information:

Regulation No.115 :

R115 is a European retrofit directive for LPG and CNG systems, as of October 2003. This directive stipulates the emission, documentation and quality standards to be met by the manufacturer of the LPG system. For each car make or car make series vehicles have to be tested in a certified laboratory. The following checks will be made during these tests:


Parent car check:

Emission measurements:
The vehicle is measured when using petrol (1x) and LPG (at least 2x). For the LPG test two reference fuels are used (LPG-A = 85% propane-15% butane and LPG-B= 30% propane-70% butane). The power per cylinder will be calculated for the parent vehicle. The R115 certification results in a range of vehicles within 30% below and 15% above this value. Depending on car make or car make series, at least 1 or 2 vehicles will have to be tested. The R115 certification is based on the Euro standard of the vehicle tested (current vehicles comply with Euro 4 standard).

Power measurement:
For each parent vehicle the power has to be measured on petrol and LPG/CNG. When running on LPG or CNG, the power should not increase more than 5%.

Fuel consumption:
For each parent vehicle the fuel consumption on LPG/CNG is calculated based on the CO2 emission measured.

OBD function check:
For each parent vehicle an OBD function check of the petrol and LPG/CNG system is made. The installed LPG or CNG system should not influence the operation of the OBD system.

Installation according to R67-01 or R110:
The R67-01 (LPG) and R110 (CNG) directives describe the use of certified components and system installation requirements. These directives have already been used in Europe for a few years. The parent vehicles will be tested based on those directives (components and installation).


Documentation:

In addition to the parent vehicle requirements, the following documentation must be provided with the LPG or CNG system according to the R115 directive:

Instruction manual (service booklet) in the appropriate language.
Installation instructions for the workshop (at least in English).
Identification sticker or label to be installed in engine compartment.


ISO / quality assurance:

The LPG or CNG system manufacturer will be tested according to the corresponding ISO standard and quality assurance program for the components (C.O.P.). This certification will be carried out by a certification board which acknowledges the R115 certification, e.g. RDW in the Netherlands or KBA in Germany.

Read the full agreement here: www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/r115e.pdf