Heads Up: Limber in UK...

[Rob Fast]

Boy,do I need/want one of these. Hoping to get lucky in Canada.



http://www.milweb.net/webverts/66277/

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi all - at the risk of being above, I have for years and will continue to do so by stating this is not a LIMBER but an ammunition trailer. Limbers were horse drawn ammunition carts pre-dating the ammunition trailer. Look at the nomenclature of the vehicle and it states ammunition trailer.

Bob

[Private_collector]

Webster Dictionary Definition, Limber:

"a two-wheeled vehicle to which a gun or caisson may be attached"

Webster Dictionary Definition, Pedantic:

"1: of, relating to, or being a pedant(see pedant)
2: narrowly, stodgily, and often ostentatiously learned
3: unimaginative, pedestrian
— pe·dan·ti·cal·ly \-ˈdan-ti-k(ə-)lē\ adverb"

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Rob Fast

Hoping to get lucky in Canada.

Geographry is immaterial. I just want to get lucky.....

[Lynn Eades]

It seems to me that if we followed or used the correct nomenclature for things military, then we would all be a lot less confused.
I recently sent a p.m. to a well known forum member, asking that he change the title of a thread to correctly identify a vehicle, that he had posted about.(all the old photos posted, carried what I believe is the Australian nomenclature) Result; not even acknowedgement of my p.m.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

It seems to me that if we followed or used the correct nomenclature for things military, then we would all be a lot less confused.
I recently sent a p.m. to a well known forum member, asking that he change the title of a thread to correctly identify a vehicle, that he had posted about.(all the old photos posted, carried what I believe is the Australian nomenclature) Result; not even acknowedgement of my p.m.

Not wanting to get off subject too far, a lot of MV's are called by names far from the official designation, for starters, down in the Southern Hemisphere a Ford or Chevrolet Canadian Military Pattern truck, although bodied locally is known by everyone as a Blitz, the only truck I know of that had that name officially was one made by Opel from late Thirties on. The Champ was the civilian version of a military vehicle built by Austin, the name was not seen on official military literature. Daimler Dingo, it actually got the name from another of the competitors for the contract, Alvis Dingo. Quite when it happened or by who we do not know but it has stuck solid with that vehicle and no one questions it.
Going back to the "limber" or Artillery Trailer, was so commonly used in the British army and the towing vehicle was generally termed a "Quad" by all who used it, whether it was a Morris, Ford or Chevrolet. I think the name may have sprung from an early gun tractor, the Guy Quad-Ant, as well as it being 4x4 of course.
Then there is the jeep, officially, for the best part of the war, it was a nickname.
Lastly, what about the Blitz Buggy ?

[Keith Webb]

I've heard Jeeps called Blitz Buggies or Panzer Prams, and although I know this has already been covered more than once, there's a myriad of nicknames for
CMPs including Blitz Buggy, Blitz Wagon, Desert Blitz, Monkey Face, Puddle Jumper (mostly for the C8AX in New Zealand) and the Dutch have an endearing name meaning something like squashed nose.
Local Pattern Machine Gun Carriers here are called Bren Carriers, just Carriers or even Brennies by some.
Dodge Weapons Carriers and Command Cars are called Beeps for Beefed up Jeep.
Some here even corrupt Marmon-Herrington into Marmite Herringbone!
So whilst the Ammunition Trailer is just that I don't think I have ever heard it referred to as anything other than a Limber.

Originally Posted by Richard Farrant

Not wanting to get off subject too far, a lot of MV's are called by names far from the official designation, for starters, down in the Southern Hemisphere a Ford or Chevrolet Canadian Military Pattern truck, although bodied locally is known by everyone as a Blitz, the only truck I know of that had that name officially was one made by Opel from late Thirties on. The Champ was the civilian version of a military vehicle built by Austin, the name was not seen on official military literature. Daimler Dingo, it actually got the name from another of the competitors for the contract, Alvis Dingo. Quite when it happened or by who we do not know but it has stuck solid with that vehicle and no one questions it.
Going back to the "limber" or Artillery Trailer, was so commonly used in the British army and the towing vehicle was generally termed a "Quad" by all who used it, whether it was a Morris, Ford or Chevrolet. I think the name may have sprung from an early gun tractor, the Guy Quad-Ant, as well as it being 4x4 of course.
Then there is the jeep, officially, for the best part of the war, it was a nickname.
Lastly, what about the Blitz Buggy ?

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

I've heard Jeeps called Blitz Buggies or Panzer Prams,

Some here even corrupt Marmon-Herrington into Marmite Herringbone!

Hi Keith,
I was waiting to see what anyone said about Blitz Buggy. In official British military wartime documents, I have seen the Bantam BRC named as such.

As for the Marmite Herringbone, have you been listening to me?

cheers, Richard

[Keith Webb]

Always keeping an ear out, Richard... that one appealed to me.

Actually you Brits have some entertaining names for things (at least to the ears of people outside the UK) like Lorries and even Tillies, and let's not even start on some of the names for parts such as the British name for hubcap!

Originally Posted by Richard Farrant

As for the Marmite Herringbone, have you been listening to me?

cheers, Richard

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

Always keeping an ear out, Richard... that one appealed to me.

Actually you Brits have some entertaining names for things (at least to the ears of people outside the UK) like Lorries and even Tillies, and let's not even start on some of the names for parts such as the British name for hubcap!

Ah Keith, I will have to think of a few more and drop them in conversation when we meet in a few weeks time

[Private_collector]

And a strawberry is just a little heart with acne.

My Dad only ever referred to the vehicles he was charged with as 'Blitzs'. I didn't even know there WAS any differing, and official, name until I joined this forum group. A lot of people here call em "Blitz Buggies". Jeeeeezus, I hate that name. Not sure why, perhaps it's that to me the inference sounds to suggest some trifling small vehicle. Whatever they may be, they aint small.

If the subject comes up, I always describe the truck (initially at least) as a CMP or full title of Canadian Military Pattern. Outside of the restoration fraternity, NO ONE KNOWS what those words or letters mean........Ever!. Until, that is, I go on to say Blitz. Then the penny drops, and suddenly everyone had a father, brother, boss or friend who HAD one. Notice I didn't say HAS one.

Anyhow, looks and sounds like we, the individual, choose to keep which wording is convenient, and correct that which we disagree with ourselves, thereby retaining our individuality. Hmmmm. Now tell me about your childhood.

[Lynn Eades]

About my childhood..... I'm still in it!

Bob, I think you and I have been gazoonked!!!

[Private_collector]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

About my childhood..... I'm still in it!

Me too

Why change. We come into the world same way we go out.......Bald, drooling and incontinent.

By the way Lynn, you clearly practice what you preach, with the way you list your vehicles in your signature. [I tip my hat to you.]

[jack neville]

Who cares what they are called? We all know what we are talking about. What is more interesting to me is the prices that limbers (sorry Bob) are creeping up to. I heard that one sold recently in the UK for £6,500. What is a good 25 pounder worth now? Or if you we're lucky enough to have the Aussie trio of Marmon Herrington, limber and gun....?

[rnixartillery]

Originally Posted by jack neville

Who cares what they are called? We all know what we are talking about. What is more interesting to me is the prices that limbers (sorry Bob) are creeping up to. I heard that one sold recently in the UK for £6,500. What is a good 25 pounder worth now? Or if you we're lucky enough to have the Aussie trio of Marmon Herrington, limber and gun....?

Jack.

That limber was one of mine.it was unrestored but very straight and solid.It went over the Belgium.
With the ever increasing interest in Quads, people then want the Gun and Limber,Guns are available here in the UK and I dont think will become 'hard to find' but there is a very big short fall in limbers hence driving the price and value up. Some might say that a limber is worth more than a gun !

Rob.................rnixartillery.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi all - let the discussion continue.

The definition that a limber is "a two-wheeled vehicle to which a gun or caisson may be attached" is very narrow and really explains nothing. As opposed to trawling through various dictionaries to obtain further narrow explanations I draw on the information from Wikipedia the free encyclopaedia

LIMBER

A limber is a two-wheeled cart designed to support the trail of an artillery piece, or the stock of a field carriage such as a caisson or travelling forge, allowing it to be towed. A caisson is a two-wheeled cart designed to carry artillery ammunition.

As artillery pieces developed trunnions and were placed on carriages featuring two wheels and a trail, a limber was devised. This was a simple cart with a pintle. When the piece was to be towed, it was raised over the limber and then lowered, with the pintle fitting into a hole in the trail. Horses or other draft animals were harnessed in single file to haul the limber. There was no provision for carrying ammunition on the limber, but an ammunition chest was often carried between the two pieces of the trail.

During the American Civil War, U.S. Army equipment was identical to Confederate Army equipment, essentially identical to French equipment, and similar to that of other nations. The field-artillery limber assumed its archetypal form – two wheels, an ammunition chest, a pintle hook at the rear, and a central pole with horses harnessed on either side.

Six horses were the preferred team for a field piece, with four being considered the minimum team. Horses were harnessed in pairs on either side of the limber pole. A driver rode on each left-hand (“near”) horse and held reins for both the horse he rode and the horse to his right (the "off horse").

In addition to hauling the artillery piece, the limber also hauled the caisson, a two-wheeled cart that carried two extra ammunition chests, a spare wheel and extra limber pole slung beneath.

With the general passing of the horse as a mover of artillery, the need for limbers and caissons also largely passed. Trucks or artillery tractors could tow artillery pieces but did not completely take over until after the end of the Second World War.

Jack your response - "Who cares what they are called? We all know what we are talking about." really degrades the effort of retaining correct terminology. Researchers and the public need the correct meaning of the word and its derivatives. Somebody may actually want to buy a limber, as described above, only to find that it is an artillery or ammunition trailer. An analogy of this could be by using the word Coke for all soft drinks whereas a soft drink is a specific item as is Coke. By using the word Coke people would eventually forget that a soft drink is a separate entity that has its own definition.

And Tony, pedantic can also mean the fastidious attention to detail which you yourself display with your Blitz restoration.

Bob

[Keith Webb]

They seem to be generically called 'Accos' or 'Inter Blitzes' by farmers and the like.

Originally Posted by Dianaa

Going on post war vehicles, we have similar issues. The International trucks have nomenclature Aust. No1 Mk3 .... etc, but are referred to as Mk3 and Mk4, however the 6X6 variant had nomenclature F1, F2 and F5 but were referred to by the troops as Mk5.

[Private_collector]

Originally Posted by Bob Moseley

.......I draw on the information from Wikipedia the free......

And Tony, pedantic can also mean the fastidious attention to detail which you yourself display with your Blitz restoration.

Bob

Ah yes! Wikipedia, the foremost authority and greatest collective of undeniable facts on this planet

A place where even their own google listing identifies:
"www.wikipedia.org/ Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit."

Surely this cannot be right?

I had to find out for myself, so in order to know for sure, I logged on and guess what!. They are right, anyone CAN change the information.
While there I made a couple of 'additions' for the greater good of mankind. Why not see if you can locate them.....BOTH!
Start by checking the updated definition of Limber The 20th Century part.
Now remember, Wikipedia = FACT!

Oh, and bob, you do realise the rifle you added to your post is actually pointing to your name don't you.

You sure do know about my resto., I see you checking progress enough.

Oddly enough, no matter how hard I tried, I just couldn't seem to change the dictionary definition. Hmmmm!

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Tony - I follow your restoration threads on a daily basis but unfortunately due to our previous differences I chose to withdraw my help with parts. A lot of what you have obtained from other sources, including overseas, I had the originals at my disposal ready to move on. Anyway that is all history.

I have no problem with the rifle pointing at me as I am often the target of my trying to be as correct as possible.

Anyway I will continue to follow your thread because at least your posts have been and will continue to be a great guide to other restorers.

Try this Bob

[Private_collector]

You're alright Bob, a good egg

All the best to ya. I'll continue to bring your instrument restoration skills to the attention of others not already aware of same.........from the background, of course.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Bob Moseley

During the American Civil War, U.S. Army equipment was identical to Confederate Army equipment, essentially identical to French equipment, and similar to that of other nations. The field-artillery limber assumed its archetypal form – two wheels, an ammunition chest, a pintle hook at the rear, and a central pole with horses harnessed on either side. Six horses were the preferred team for a field piece....harnessed in pairs on either side of the limber pole. A driver rode on each left-hand (“near”) horse and held reins for both the horse he rode and the horse to his right (the "off horse").

Earlier today I was in a library looking for gun tractor pics in out of print unit histories, and I happened to photograph the pic below. It's exactly as per American Civil War described above!

[Mike Cecil]

What an interesting thread, and so full of interesting 'terminology', too. Got a bit 'snippy' at one stage, which is regrettable, but I see we are back on track.

Now the 'Trailers, Artillery, No.27 Mk.1' (to use the correct nomenclature, rather than just calling it an 'ammunition trailer') is what it is by the military's definition: a two wheel 'trailer'. It acts in the capacity of a LIMBER in the artillery 'train', being located between the field piece and the towing tractor, and with its primary purpose being the carriage of ammunition (as per the 'civvie' dictionary, it's a limber, but...). To quote from the manual: 'The No.27 trailer can be employed either as the carriage trailer or as the front or rear ammunition trailer'.

Of course, if we head back a little to the First World War, there were two 'types' of ammunition transporter for field artillery: the ammunition LIMBER and the ammunition WAGON - neither of which were officially called a 'trailer', by the way, until the 1930s (see below).

The difference (besides the minutia of the equipment onboard) was where it 'sat' in the train: the ammunition Limber had a demountable perch pole and was drawn by the horse team. The field piece (gun) was attached to the rear of the Limber by a tow hook engaging the eye on the trail of the artillery piece.

The WAGON had a fixed steel towing arm and was attached to the rear of a Limber in place of the field piece. It carried 'second line' ammunition.

For every field piece there was, in theory, two horse teams: one dragging a Limber and the field piece, the other dragging a second limber and a Wagon.

It was the wagons that were converted in Aust in WW2 to pneumatic wheels, not the limbers. Once converted, they were re-designated as 'Trailer, Ammunition, No.X Mk. X (P)' (X being the different configurations). The P indicated the conversion to pneumatic wheels.

In 1939 (August, to be precise for Salesman Bob's benefit), the 'Artillery Mechanization' Minute by the Secretary of the Military Board discussed the conversion of 'Carriages and Trailers' to pneumatic wheels, and the return of 'Trailers, Harness saddler etc to Ordnance'. I'm not sure exactly when the change from 'Wagon' and 'Limber' to 'Trailer' occurred, but certainly by the late 1930s, the nomenclature had altered to designating the Wagon for 18pr ammunition as 'Trailers, No.9. Mk.1' and the limbers as 'Trailers, No.4'. (There were other designations for 4.5 inch HOW, etc), ie they were all grouped under the one broad designation, being 'Trailers' and differentiated by the No. and Mk. So, limbers and wagons were horse-drawn trailers by the 1930s, but pneumatic-wheeled trailers were never limbers or wagons.....hmmm

Clear as mud, eh? I must admit I prefer accurate or pseudo-accurate descriptions for materiel, but that's just me. I still comprehend the use of words like 'Beep', peep, jeep (lower case, of course: don't want to infringe a Trademark!), Blitz, etc etc.

But there are times when I have to react to the 'common' to correct the record. When Mud & Dust was published, a book reviewer took me to task for using the nomenclature 'F1' to describe the 'Truck 5 ton 6x6 GS' built by International in Australia, as the reviewer stated that everyone knows it is a Mk.5. What rubbish! The truck may have been popularly known as a Mk.5, but it was officially introduced into service as the 'F1', and was never the Mk.5.

But it can get a bit ridiculous to use the FULL designation when writing. Take the Centurion tank for example, the Australian nomenclature was 'Tank, Combat, Full Tracked, Medium Gun, Centurion Mark 5/1 fitted for Wireless C42/B47' - bit much to repeat several times a page in an article or discussion! So we all shorten it to 'Centurion Mk.5/1' or whatever.

As for 'Wicked-Pedia', the less said the better! Might be a starting point when looking for something, but always look for corroboration elsewhere.

Mike C

[Mike Cecil]

Hanno,

This thread has gone way-away from 'sales and wants': maybe we should transfer it to somewhere more applicable within the Forum?

Over to you.....

Mike C

[Rob Fast]

I am just looking for an affordable in Canada Limber. Cheers Rob

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Mike - as always you have come through with detailed knowledge that I do not possess. Thank you once again guru. As far as using Wikipedia, it is only one of my research tools and I treat its information with as much suspicion as any other source.

As far as the snippy bit, this was a historical carry over and I am glad that has been resolved. I must be getting more tolerant in my old ags. NO!!

Bob

[Private_collector]

All in good fun Bob!

Makes life interesting, at least.

Next time you're viewing my thread, drop a line and say hello. Always welcome. Seriously.

[Richard Farrant]

Before this thread winds down and just to throw a spanner in Bob's works, think about this one........ the FV623 Alvis Stalwart Mk2 was officially designated ............ Artillery Limber

[Private_collector]

Oh dear god, no!!!!

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Private_collector

Oh dear god, no!!!!

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Ttttthhhhhhrrrrrrprppp!!

Bob