Early gun tractors for Australian 3-inch 26 cwt AA?

[Leonid]

Hello!

Anyone knows what trucks(tractors) were used to tow Australian 3-inch 20 cwt AA guns before 1939 when Ford Marmon-Herrington 4x4 was adopted as standard field artillery tractor? The problem is that I've found some photos of Australian 3-inch 20 cwt dated 1938 (but unfortunately without any "towers" in picture area) and one photo of these guns towed by Marmon-Herrington tractors (date of creation - circa 1940, State Library of Victoria)...

Leonid

[cliff]

Not sure where these two photos originally came from but both show early artillery gun tractors here in Australia.

[Leonid]

Khe-khe... I saw these photos. The first photo shows military parade at Lochinvar, N.S.W. (Date of creation: [ca. 1940], State Library of Victoria). The trucks are something old-fashioned (exactly not Ford Marmon-Herrington 4x4 ) while modernized 18 pdr MkIV guns look nice!
The second one shows artillery practice at Sandringham by 18th Heavy Battery (Date of creation: [ca. 1932-ca. 1938], State Library of Victoria). The tractors are Thornycroft "Hathi", it's clear, while the guns seem to be 6 inch howitzers... However I'm not sure that they were used for towage of 3inch AA trailers for some reasons (at least because only a few "Hathi" tractors (possibly seven) were supplied to Australia in the early 1930s...

Leonid

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

I think this thread needs to be merged with Leonid's thread in the Gun Park Forum as it deals with the same basic subject.

Bob

[lynx42]

SO WHERE ARE those THORNYCROFT HATHI"S NOW????
Records show that 7 came to Australia. There are a few photos around but where are the HATHI's?
Does anyone have any idea just where they ended up. They were still on the books in 1945.
Thanks Rick.

[Mike Kelly]

Originally Posted by Leonid

The second one shows artillery practice at Sandringham by 18th Heavy Battery (Date of creation: [ca. 1932-ca. 1938], State Library of Victoria).
Leonid

Interesting .Sandringham is a bayside suburb of Melbourne, that pic doesn't look anything like the area , but that said, it was taken in the 1930's and that may be Port Philip bay in the background. One thing, the foreshore ( if it is the foreshore ) looks to be too bare for it to be in that particular region of the bay - the foreshore all along there was and is still quite heavy with coastal vegetation . The only road it could be is Beach road, which follows the foreshore.

During WW2, there was at least one coastal gun emplacement at Sandringham, the site was manned by the VDC ( our version of dads army ) I believe. It would have had a panoramic view of the main shipping channel in the bay.
Mike

[Leonid]

Originally Posted by Bob Moseley

I think this thread needs to be merged with Leonid's thread in the Gun Park Forum as it deals with the same basic subject.
Bob

Yes, you are right, although I have specially "splitted" my questions to get more replies from more people (this simple trick helps sometimes)!

BTW: is it possible to identify the trucks with old-fashioned cab (the 1st photo)?

Leonid

[Bob McNeill]

Judgeing by the rear axle they are Inters

[cliff]

Originally Posted by Bob McNeill

Judgeing by the rear axle they are Inters

I think Bob is right and they are 1935 International Trucks

[cliff]

The National Archieves of Australia has this photo of a 1935 International Truck whick looks very similar to those Gun Tractors except for single rear wheel rather then dual wheels. Caption reads....

Title : International Truck - Ready for use - Taken at Ocean Island 28 December 1936
Date : 1935
Primary subject : Not Assigned
Secondary subject : Not Assigned
Image no. : R32, VOLUME 124/1427
Barcode : 6445905
Location : Melbourne
Find other items in this series : R32
Series accession number : R32/1

[cliff]

The AWM has the photo below showing 4 of the Thornycroft's parked up. Caption reads.......

ID Number: P00165.019
Physical description: Black & white
Summary: NORTH RYDE, NSW, WWII. VEHICLES AT 3RD AUSTRALIAN ORDNANCE VEHICLE PARK, NORTH RYDE. TAKEN BY JOHN GARDENER WHEN HE WAS CAMP PHOTOGRAPHER, OCTOBER/ NOVEMBER 1945.
Copyright: Copyright expired - public domain
Copyright holder: Copyright Expired
Related subject: Vehicle parks
Related unit: 3 Ordnance Vehicle Park
Related place: Australia: New South Wales, Sydney, Ryde

Related conflict: Second World War, 1939-1945

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I have no idea if this is totally relevant but from my notes, in mid-1936, Ford of Australia assisted in the mechanisation of the Australian Field Artillery by designing and producing gun tractors and similar vehicles. The Geelong Plant converted a British Ford [Fordson surely] forward-control truck for the Australian Army. The unit was designed as a Field Gun Tractor and carried a 7-man crew plus ammunition. The chassis was shortened to 105 inches and the fuel tank was mounted centrally. A two-wheeled gun transporter that mounted the QF 18-pounder field gun was designed so that it could be towed at speeds of up to 35 m.p.h. Note that the truck design called for 4-wheel, 2-wheel drive and there was no attempt at that stage on a bogie conversion.

In early 1939, Sydney, NSW, Ford distributors, Hastings-Deering Limited, loaned the Australian Army 28 Ford V-8 Utility vehicles based on imported components, CKD, from Windsor, Ontario. Reports suggested that they performed well and were proven ideally suitable for Army use. As a result, the Australian Army issued a specification for a new type of truck based on the Forward-Control British Ford chassis [possibly the Ford Thames Model 7V with 30 h.p.V-8]. Ford Australia prepared the se vehicles as artillery transporters, range finders and associated equipment haulers.

I can't recall when the 7V was introduced ..1937??

[Leonid]

Hello!
At least first tractor for Australian 3-inch mobile AA guns was "Hathi"! Check this link:
http://www.defence.gov.au/news/armyn.../history01.htm

When two 3-inch mobile guns and their Hathi tractors arrived in Australia in 1927, 1 Anti-Aircraft Bty, which was raised in anticipation the previous year with only a small cadre, expanded to a battery headquarters, a 3-inch gun section and a Lewis-gun section. A year later, a second 3-inch gun section was formed.

An interesting photo:

3inch AA Guns towed by Ford M-H tractors (State Library of Victoria)

As for truck identification. I'm not the great expert in it but the rear axle (which you have easily identified and the cab too, btw) looks very similar to that of "Ford", "Indi-White", "Leyland" or even "Chevrolet" trucks built in the early 1930s... Just some photos from Australian archives for example:


T model Ford and A model Ford trucks - Cessnock, NSW

Coburg city council new Leyland Cub trucks, 1934

Council lorry - Chevrolet 30cwt, August 1937

Besides, I saw another photos of "International" (1935) truck and I can talk that there are some differences. So I think the question still is open but it is not a vital question, rather a curiosity, though...

Leonid

[cliff]

Originally Posted by Leonid

Besides, I saw another photos of "International" (1935) truck and I can talk that there are some differences. So I think the question still is open but it is not a vital question, rather a curiosity, though...

None of the trucks you feature have the same wheels and if you look at the bonnet vents they match the photo of the 1935 International I put up and the wheels show quite clearly the large 'Hub cap' at the centre which was an identifying mark of an International. The 1934 and 1936 International trucks had a different set of louvre vents down the side of the bonnet. As to the body style looking the same it is because most makes of vehicle with local built cabs had them built by the same companies as each other.

[nuyt]

Check out this thread:
http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/sh...rnycroft+hathi

[Leonid]

Oh, the 'funnies' which David Hayward have been talking about! I've checked it as well as "An odd Ford Gun Tractor" topic relating to the subject, thanks!

[Local Chap]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

Interesting .Sandringham is a bayside suburb of Melbourne, that pic doesn't look anything like the area , but that said, it was taken in the 1930's and that may be Port Philip bay in the background. One thing, the foreshore ( if it is the foreshore ) looks to be too bare for it to be in that particular region of the bay - the foreshore all along there was and is still quite heavy with coastal vegetation . The only road it could be is Beach road, which follows the foreshore.
Mike

There is also a Sandringham in NSW on the shores of Botany Bay. The view of the bay in the background of the pic is more like Botany Bay, but the vegetation also appears wrong for that location too, which also features thick coastal scrub and mangroves in the area. Of course, today it's all million dollar houses.