Serial # Question

cletrac (RIP) · #1 08-01-05, 19:52

Here's one for you guys that know about the serial number nomenclature. My HUP data plate says the date of manufacture was Feb 25, 1943 but the first number of the serial number is 2 which should indicate a 1943 build year.I've seen this difference on other data plates too. Why the discrepancy?

Hanno Spoelstra · #2 08-01-05, 20:32

Quote:

Originally posted by cletrac
My HUP data plate says the date of manufacture was Feb 25, 1943 but the first number of the serial number is 2 which should indicate a 1943 build year.

I don't understand the problem, unless you mean to say but the first number of the serial number is 2 which should indicate a 1942 build year.

:
H.

cletrac (RIP) · #3 08-01-05, 20:45

Hanno, that's what I meant to say. Must have hit the wrong key.

Snowtractor · #4 09-01-05, 04:49

...Check out ebay, Cletrac, there is a winch off a cleatrac currently offered.
Sean

David_Hayward (RIP) · #5 09-01-05, 09:23

The answer is that with regards to CMPs and other military trucks, the first digit although normally referring to Model Year in fact relates uniquely, and this also relates to Fords with their engine number usage as serial. to the year in which the contract was placed. So, this was a 1942 Model assembled in 1943. Take 1940 as a very odd year..Canadian orders were continued to be assembled and supplied in late 1940 and yet 1941 Model Year had started. All British orders, although assembly started early September 1940, were '1941' Models! Note that there were NO '1945' Model CMPs, although there were some 1945 Model MCPs. Yet there were trucks being assembled as early fall 1945 as 1944 Models!

Here are known dates of assembly for 1942 Model C8As...although the evidence is that the prototype or pilot '42 C8A was built August-September 1941 in 1942 Model Year despite it having a build date of February 1942...this was the final assembly for release to the DND.

PROTOTYPE 284450006 ENGINE 3,557,157 ORDER L.V.59 BUILT FEBRUARY 1942 [C-HU-441-M?]# 13 CAB 1941 ENGINE
2844509596 ENGINE # FR3,820,927 ORDER L.V.59 BUILT MAY 8 1942
2844509680 ENGINE FR3,821,318 ORDER L.V.308 MAY 18 1942 [C-HU-441-M]
2844509683 ENGINE FR3,821,292 ORDER L.V.308 MAY 18 1942 [C-HU-441-M]
2844509772 ENGINE FR……ORDER L.V.308 MAY 27 1942 Z 58-700

2844515234 ENGINE # FR3838709 L.V.309 AUGUST 14 1942 [C-HU-441-M-WIRE1] Z 65-479

2844515380 [JUNE 5 1943] > ANTENNA SUPPORT ON RIGHT-HAND RUNNING BOARD AND BRACKET AT ROOF LEVEL

# 2844515398 [JULY 6 1943]>PAINTING RE CHARGING ON CHORE HORSE COMPARTMENT

2844515417 ENGINE # FR3,852,704 NOVEMBER 4 1942
2844515470 ENGINE # FR3,866,568 ORDER L.V. 309 NOVEMBER 17 1942

2844533163 ENGINE # FR3,865,220 ORDER L.V.310 JANUARY 6 1943
2844533400 ORDER L.V.308 JANUARY 14 1943 C.8A HUP
2844533553 ENGINE # FR3,889,176 ORDER L.V. 308 FEBRUARY 24 1943
2844533564 ENGINE # FR3,889,179 ORDER L.V.308 FEBRUARY 25 1943 [ C-HU-441-M]
2844533759 ENGINE FR3,890,774 ORDER L.V.308 MARCH 19 1943 [C-HU-441-M]
2844539654 ENGINE FR????? ORDER L.V.308 FEBRUARY 25 1943 PERS-1

Brian Gough · #6 12-01-05, 23:07

David Pope, thanks for asking a very interesting question. David Hayward, could you expand some more on your answer about model years changing, at least as it applies to GM, Oshawa - built vehicles.

Is it known when each model year began for GM, Oshawa - built vehicles?

As changes were made on an ongoing basis throughout production, what is the real significance, if any, of a model year change?

From my observation certainly the model year did not change with the calendar year and there is no consistency as to when it did change each year. I think the 1943 model year started in April, 1943, definitely after Mar 22/43, the build date of HUP serial #2844533784 (mine), almost a month after David Pope's.

For the 1944 model year, the data plate on the nice C15A radio van owned by the Oshawa Museum is very interesting:

C-15A
13
4844400001
PR3973928
CDLV 2571
June 19-44

From this example do we conclude the 1944 model year commenced on June 19, 1944?

I agree with David H. there may not have been a 1945 model year at all. I have never seen a GM Oshawa CMP serial number that commenced with a "5", although CMP production there continued at least until Aug 31, 1945 with ser #4844521386, a HUP now in the Canadian War Museum.

Last point, David H., on C8A serial #2844500006, the main dataplate (new style) shows only "Pilot Model" in the order no. line. Do you know where the reference to Contract LV59 came from?

Brian

David_Hayward (RIP) · #7 13-01-05, 00:03

Brian, I am not sure where I got the CDLV 59 from now, as I have had information direct as you know and also have read WHEELS & TRACKS. The very first Canadian C8A contract was in fact C.D.L.V. 59, so the BODY would have been to that contract. I will certainly check when I can to find out where the information came from.

By the way, I was checking Dr Gregg's books just now and believe that Ford, whilst they obviously created at DND or more likely Ministry of Supply request, a F8A design since the very few built probably ended up in India to British order, they politely turned down the request to produce any series production units because of other commitments and so left it to GM of Canada to produce the 4 x 4 8-cwt. trucks. The only photo of a F8A chassis-cab shows that it had a # 12 Cab, and thus predated the earliest C8A, # the pilot truck with a chassis built late summer 1941.

In answer to the MY cut-offs, this varied between Ford, GM and Chrysler, and between the Canadian and US companies. I have on hand the Chevrolet and GMC 248 engine production figures abd also CKD production figurs by month for the years in question. The 1940 Walkerville Plant Model Year engine production ran August 1939 to July 1940, with zilch produced in July 1939! Although no '1941 MY' is stated, my guess is that as GMC 248 production started in September 1940 and finished in June 1941, that was in fact 1941 MY for Oshawa. There was a severe drop in production in September 1941, compared to August 1941 [Regina Plant closed July 1941], and they were probably tooling up for 1942 Model Year .... there was then no break until January 1946 because of the Auto Wokers' strike.

I shall have to check Ford of Canada's MY but from memory 1941 started August 1940, but 1942 was truncated so far as civilian production is concerned. The last Canadian civilian TRUCKS until 1944 came off the lines in late January 1942, with the last Chev a 2-door sedan and the last Ford a Mercury 4-door. IIn the past I have interpreted old Canadian motor industry data from WARD'S CANADIAN AUTOMOTIVE HANDBOOK as suggesting that military car production continued until say June 1942 ay least but these 1942 Models could have been frozen dealer stocks released.

I really feel that the Model Year distinction after 1941 MY ended was blurred somewhat and it had more to do in the case of GM of Canada with contract dates. This overlapping of MYs started in 1940 in the case of Canadian Ford and Chevrolet orders, as '1940' Models continued in production until the [1940] contracts had been fulfilled even though some chassis were assembled in 1941 MY, possibly even into 1941 Calebdar Year. However, the first British orders went into production a few days apart [Windsor first, Oshawa following] around the beginning of September 1940 ['Ford of Canada started production of their British orders on 26 August 1940, and G.M. of Canada on 3 September 1940. One of the first shipments consisted of 70 15 cwt. Chevrolets and 25 Ford 3-Ton trucks, which was a tiny portion of the overall demand'] and thus after 1941 Model Year had commenced..I have the actual dates somewhere. All British-ordered CMPs had '1941' Model Year serials/engine numbers except for those Canadian-ordered units that were sold by the DND to the British Ministry of Supply after assembly in the UK, which were then retained in the UK or shipped out to the Mid-East. This overlapping continued it seems year-on-year, and my Canadian Chevrolet/GMC database gives some idea of how in e.g. 1943 and 1944 the new MY production commenced well into the Calendar Year because there were so many units still to be completed from the previous year's contracts.

I believe that there were no 1945 Model CMPs because there were no 1945-placed contracts, and that the evidence shows that the last Canadian and British orders that were completed in the Fall of 1945 some time after the paperwork had been lodged. However, at least two MCPs, 1945 Models are know to me, one was in a Candian scrapyard, and civilian-style trucks, having started coming of the line in 1944 for essential users, may have been continued for humanitarian and recovery work, etc.

1945 MODEL CHASSIS 1543X1
SERIAL # 5154307537 ENGINE T104,220 BODY 2553 [Stake Body]..note a British delivery/assembly and then repatriated!

I also know of three 1945 Model GMCs which may have been ex-military. Both Ford and GM of Canada produced 1945 Model trucks until production ended in December 1945 of Chevrolets/Maple Leafs and GMCs, re-starting April 1946 with the 1946 Models, and in the case of Ford, until the strike in Windsor Plant started September 12 1945.

A letter dated 11 September 1945 from the Minister of Munitions and Supply to General Motors of Canada states that wartime production would be ending 'in a few days thereafter': this seems to suggest that C.M.P. production as well as M.C.P. production ended by 20 September, say 30 September at the latest, in the Oshawa Plant.

The last C.M.P. models were plated as ‘1944 Models’, prefixed ‘4’ on the build plate in front of the model year of Chevrolet trucks. The latest known build date stamped on a build plate was 30 August 1945: 1C11 Staff Car # 4844521386 ENGINE # FR4,057,573 to British order S/M 6407 though there were later contracts: the last one known was S/M 6524 again for Staff Cars.

There were also 1944 Model Fords assembled into what was arguably 1946 Model Year: Ford Model C291Q, Serial Number CK-236140, Engine # 5G-420-F to S/M 6389 was built in November 1945. The highest known British Ford contract was for F.60L units to Contract S/M 6537, e.g. Ford F60L/WP built to contract S/M 6537 on 4 September 1945 which has serial number SU-301065 and engine number 5G-11449F.

David_Hayward (RIP) · #8 13-01-05, 00:24

HOLDEN-ASSEMBLED:

38444M00003 [MELBOURNE-ASSEMBLED]
38444B00073 [BRISBANE-ASSEMBLED]
38444S00084 ENGINE # WR3,926,603 [SYDNEY-ASSEMBLED]
384444M00242 ENGINE # WR3,925,672 [MELBOURNE-ASSEMBLED]
38444S00830 ENGINE # WR3,925,820 W.O. 8 [SYDNEY-ASSEMBLED]
38444M00286 ENGINE # WR3.925,868 [MELBOURNE-ASSEMBLED]
38444M00302 ENGINE # WR3,925,794 [MELBOURNE-ASSEMBLED]
38444S0364 ENGINE # WR3,943,036 ORDER W.O. 8 S-M0E52-446 JULY 31 1944 [SYDNEY ASSEMBLED]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3844404231 ENGINE # WR3,913,148 ORDER C.L.V. 1513 JUNE 9 1943
3844404278 ENGINE WR3,913,219 ORDER C.D.L.V. 1513 JUNE 9 1943
3844406244
3844410307M ENGINE # WR3,962,474 [MELBOURNE-ASSEMBLED]

3844422245 ORDER S/M 6053? SEPTEMBER 24 1943
3844422246 ENGINE # WR3,933,269 ORDER S/M 6053 SEPTEMBER 24 1943
3844422958
3844422960
3844422961
38444[2]2976
3844424437
3844427363
3844427461
3844427540
3844427571
3844434409 ENGINE # PR3,973,509 ORDER C.D.L.V. 1698 APRIL 20 1944
3844434500 ENGINE # PR3,975,513 ORDER C.D.L.V. 1513 APRIL 21 1944
3844437000M ENGINE # WR3,821,426 [MELBOURNE-ASSEMBLED]
3844437362

4844400001 ENGINE # PR3,973,928 C.D.L.V. 2571 JUNE 19 1944 ...fits in here perhaps as a pilot 1944 Model?

3844438115 ENGINE # PR3,978,697 ORDER C.D.L.V. 2572 JUNE 12 1944
3844438177 ENGINE # PR3,978,481 JUNE 12 1944
3844438220 ENGINE # PR3,978,595 ORDER C.D.L.V. 2571 JUNE 13 1944
3844438249 ENGINE # PR3,978,589 ORDER C.D.L.V. 2571 JUNE 13 1944
3844438262 ORDER C.D.L.V. 2571 JUNE 13 1944
3844438269 ENGINE PR3,978,636 ORDER C.D.L.V .2571 JUNE 13 1944
3844438273 ENGINE # PR3,978,477 ORDER C.L.V. 1571 JUNE 13 44 [WIRE-5]
3844438414

I wish to publicly thank Keith Webb for his database information.

David_Hayward (RIP) · #9 13-01-05, 00:24

Note that CDLV 2571 continues into 1944 Model Year, and that # 00001 was assembled several weeks before #1944....00291. Did they use up a pilot chassis after testing/trials?

4844400291 ENGINE # PR3,981,618 C.D.L.V. 2571 JULY 13 1944
C15A-WIRE-5
4844400528 C.D.L.V. 2571 JULY 19 1944
4844400546 ENGINE # PR3,988,563 C.D.L.V. 2571 JULY 1944
C-15A-WIRE-5
4844400579 PR3987544 JULY 20 1944
4844403808 ENGINE # PR4,000,896
4844403833 ENGINE # PR4,001,100 C.D.L.V 2615 OCTOBER 3 1944
4844403881
4844403957 ENGINE # PR3,996,370 C.D.L.V. 2571 OCTOBER 5 1944
4844403963 ENGINE # PR3,996,406 OCTOBER 5 1944
4844404216 C-15A-WIRE-3 OCTOBER 11 1944
4844404254
484440441X
4844404433
4844404515
4844404613
4844405605
4844405659 ENGINE # PR4,005,595 S/M 6439 NOVEMBER 17 1944
4844405841
4844405959
4844406248
4844406283
4844406437
4844407196 ENGINE # PR4,015,898 S/M 6439-M JANUARY 8 1945
4844408040
4844408771
4844411026
4844413824 ENGINE # PR4,050,222 AUS CONTRACT PE-205-63 [NOW IN SOUTH AMERICA] JULY 13 1945
4844420112 PE-211-103 APRIL 27 1945 [HOLDEN-ASSEMBLED]

David_Hayward (RIP) · #10 13-01-05, 09:25

Chevrolets were introduced as follows:
1940: October 1939
1941: November 1940
1942: September 1941

Ford of Canada's CMP Model Years:
1940: November 1 1939 to October 1 1940: start # 1G-175 and finish # 1G-11500. Except that Motor Numbering for 1940 Model Year was established 11 September 1939, so engine production for 1940 MY probably started around that time. / 1940 MY engine numbers overlapped with 1941 Model Year production....this is probably to do with 1940 Canadian military contracts remaining to be fulfilled.
1941:October 1 1940 to November 1 1941: start #2G-205 and finish # 2G-48148, one month or two months later than other series. Last C11C for instance was September 1, # 2B-6361.

Ford Model Year sales started
1940: October 1939
1941: October 1940
1942: December 1941

Dodge [Canada] Model Year sales started:
1940: January 1940
1941: August 1940
1942: December 1941

We know from evidence from GM of Canada that traditionally the previous MY production stopped about a month before the new MY production started, allowing for tooling-up and the workers were sent on their holidays. After 1940 there was no such break in production it seems until the end of 1945. I suggest that Ford and Chrysler did the same.

Brian Gough · #11 13-01-05, 13:10

David, thanks for your replies and all the numbers. These should keep Keith Webb busy for a few minutes.

Here is one more C-15A on order LV2571 with a June 13, 1944 build date: serial #3844438206 engine #PR3978466

Brian

David_Hayward (RIP) · #12 13-01-05, 16:06

Brian, I have a BIG database and it it gets bigger and better the more information I have. When I have nothing to do, which is never it seems these days, I work through a big pile of old UK civilian regos., and they yield up more numbers from demobbed trucks.

I have often wondered what the prefixes were before 'R' [rhd] on CMP Chevrolet engines meant. I suspect it is to indicate improvements but do Service News advise?

D

cmperry4 · #13 13-01-05, 19:51

My "45" staff car confirms as well, carries a "1944" serial with build date of Aug 27/45

David_Hayward (RIP) · #14 13-01-05, 23:48

Serial # 48440786xx is the only 1944 MODEL CGT I know of.

Craig Tanner · #15 14-01-05, 00:56

Good evening all!

I have a "serial number question". I have asked Mr Hayward about this before and he suggested that I post a question in this forum.

I am restoring a, to our best knowledge, a 1944 15cwt Chev CMP. The only data plate left on it was one on the "dog house" by the driver side. It was painted over with several layers of bright orange, red, etc, and then someone scratched most of it off, I guess to get any data that was on it, and made a real mess. The only visible stamped number is near the bottom, which displays the number 8500. There are some letters ghosting through above and to the best of our efforts we are unable to decypher what was originally marked on it.

My question is: does any one have any idea, or even perhaps a picture, of a data plate that was in this location and what was printed on it.

The winter struck before I could get the frame surveyed in detail for any numbers and there was no serial number at or near the trailer hitch. I will have to wait until spring.

Thanks!

Craig Tanner
Oromocto N.B.

Brian Gough · #16 14-01-05, 01:31

Hi Craig,

I think you are referring to the gross vehicle weight plate, measuring 4 1/8" x 2 1/2'' and reading:

CAUTION

MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE GROSS WEIGHT
INCLUDING CHASSIS, CAB, BODY, PAYLOAD
AND DRIVER.

NOT TO EXCEED 8500 LBS.

GENERAL MOTORS OF CANADA LTD.

Brian

Craig Tanner · #17 14-01-05, 21:40

Thanks very much!

Although disapointing, it still puts the mistery to rest. The only other thing is to wait until spring when I can get back at the frame to see if there are any other identifying numbers.

By the way the vehicle will, hopefully someday, become a 15 cwt CMP wire 5 variant.

Can't wait till spring!

Thanks again

Craig Tanner
Oromocto N.B.