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  #1  
Old 22-06-11, 19:23
chris vickery's Avatar
chris vickery chris vickery is offline
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Default 1970s CF Radios

Thanks to Darrell Z, I am now the proud owner of a manual on the VRC12 series of radios. It is very informative.

My questions to our radio gurus, re:RT-524A, I am wondering what the usual configuration was;
RT-524A (VRC-46), or
RT-524A w/R-442 (VRC-47), or
RT-524A w/R-442 x 2 (VRC-48)
RT-524A x 2 (VRC-49)

I am thinking as my M38A1 CDN3 was an armoured recce veh that I want to portray a correct comms jeep of the era. I have dual mounts for antennae and am leaning more towards a dual radio configuration. I would like to do the most common representation.
I want to have an operational setup (yes I know about licenses etc)

Not being well versed in radio jargon, here is how I understand it.
The 524 was a receiver/transmitter. The 442 was strictly a receiver.
I assume that in the field 442 sets would be tuned to other frequences from other mobile units (manpack PRC25 or 77 sets) and then to be re-broadcast on the 524 set, perhaps to a command center? If not, what was the purpose of fitting 442 sets alongside the 524?
What was the reasoning behind dual 524 sets? (VRC-49)
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3RD Echelon Wksp

1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC
1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC
1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army
1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR
1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer
1943 Converto Airborne Trailer
1983 M1009 CUCV

RT-524, PRC-77s,
and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and.......

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  #2  
Old 22-06-11, 21:20
rob love rob love is offline
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From my light armoured recce days, the answer is: One radio only in the recce jeeps, which, as of around 1979/80 would have been the 524. Dual radio setups were in certain officer's jeeps only, which were usually M151A2s in my unit.
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  #3  
Old 25-06-11, 01:59
Steamynachos Steamynachos is offline
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Would both the Rt-524 and the Prc-77 in the am2060 be hooked into the intercom or just the 524.
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  #4  
Old 25-06-11, 03:33
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
Terry Warner
 
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Default Recce jeep

I want to echo Rob Love's comment about 1x RT524 per troop vehicle. Add a Prick 77 set and maybe a pair of T-43 field telephones with WD1 wire. The risk is overthinking the restoration based on possibilities rather than realities.

The facts of life in my small town militia unit were simple: we were 100 miles from our support base, the regular support staff were more worried about advising the CO, RSM, Chief Clerk and QM than policing the troops. We didn't have a fulltime tech stores guy, so we were on our own.

Getting ready for an exercise was a juggle between - corraling ungrounded vehicles, enough guys and enough working radios. As soon as we discovered that the coax cable to the AMU and 10' antenna also connected to the 77 and the handset mike also worked on the RT524, we were in business back and forth. The 10' antenna fits the gooseneck base (I think) and it would point back towards the CP without radiating to the enemy or grounding on the vehicle.

The 5/4 CP might have had 2 radios but most nets had the one frequency for all squadron business. The other reality was frequencies were allocated per unit, and we had maybe 5 or 6 to use. Undisciplined use of the spectrum was hammered into us because no one wanted to miss a radio check. There was no reason to get complicated - and what would a second net accomplish without a mast or ground plane antenna to talk backwards? We never had either.
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- 74-????? M151A2
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  #5  
Old 25-06-11, 05:05
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Terry is totally on the mark about possibilities vs realities. In my own experience, I never saw a GRC-160 install in anything but a Section Vehicle (2 CER anyway). The logic was if the Field Section had to operate dismounted from the vehicle, you just popped out the 77 Set, fitted it to the Man-Pack, and off you go. RT-524s were found in most everything else requiring a Radio. Dual installations were really only in Command Posts (Troop and Squadron), Squadron OCs, and CO's Tac etc. Troop Commanders and Troop Recces often nabbed a dual installation as well, but I don't believe that was "doctrine" for us until the Assault Pioneers/Assault Troopers were stood down and Engineer Sub-Sub Units were tasked with intimate support to the manouvre arms. The fancy stuff like HF was rarely if ever used at the Regt level in the normal operating environment. IIRC, HF was usually a function of the Brigade HQ & Sigs guys, but I suppose there are one offs like FOO/FACs that may have used them, but i'm wandering way out of my lane now.

Having said all of that, i'm a bit of a hypocrite and have a RT-524A and GRC-160 (PRC-77 in AM-2060) in my M151A2. Highly unlikely combination in a Sapper Jeep, especially the Support Squadron 2 I/C, but I hauled around a 77 Set enough to enjoy owning one now.
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  #6  
Old 25-06-11, 15:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak View Post
At work, I have some good pictures of an Iltis in service in Bosnia/Croatia with dual VHF antenna and one HF antenna. The vehicle is a MP Iltis, with a VHF whip on the rear driver side, an HF antenna on the rear passenger side, and a VHF whip on the front mount. It appears to be running a checkpoint on a road. I will have to remember to post them on this thread.
Bosnia was a nightmare for Comms from the end user perspective. We got pretty good at setting up and tearing down the Mast and Sputnik by the time I left. Our Sat Phone came in a kit the size of a Barracks Box and required a portable generator to run it. This was during the VRC-12 days and there was no low level HF Comms at that point. I'm not surprised HF showed up years later, especially when operations consisted of parking a C/S or two at every polling station in the AO or similar stuff. Regardless, Bosnia wasn't doctrine. Had the Iltis remained in service after we pulled out of the Balkans, that Comms setup would have been yanked upon return to Canada, sorta like the RT-117F of late.

Nothing wrong with doing what your doing in my eyes. Its the guys who are painting Iltis' 383 Desert Tan and passing them off as legit period correct Op ATHENA vehicles that irks me.
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  #7  
Old 26-06-11, 02:18
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MX-6707 antenna mount plates.
Does anyone have any of these surplus to their needs? I have two different types of antenna mounts but both have the small hole style for C42 sets antennae. Failing surplus units, does someone have the hole diameter required? I could always torch or holesaw out my mounts.
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3RD Echelon Wksp

1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC
1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC
1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army
1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR
1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer
1943 Converto Airborne Trailer
1983 M1009 CUCV

RT-524, PRC-77s,
and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and.......

OMVA, MVPA, G503, Steel Soldiers
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  #8  
Old 18-07-11, 03:24
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Marc Montgomery Marc Montgomery is offline
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ok heres a question or two..
all my doghouses came from iltis.
on one, there is faded paint which clearly shows an m1029 tray was mounted directly on top, ie not it a second doghouse...

also, it was mounted facing backwards, indeed if you check the multitude of holes in the doghouses, the tray only lines up with mounting holes when its facing backwards...


also on one of the double doghouses i have, both have the 18pin connector cables...which I thought (???) were for connection to crew boxes but why would you need that in an Iltis?

After Scotty checked my vehicle history, there is some hint that it might have been used by the Cdn Cmdr in Bosnia...IF this turns out to be the case...would he have had one 524 or ????
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  #9  
Old 23-07-11, 18:01
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Montgomery View Post
o...
After Scotty checked my vehicle history, there is some hint that it might have been used by the Cdn Cmdr in Bosnia...IF this turns out to be the case...would he have had one 524 or ????
So yesterday I bumped into my battle group CO from Bosnia (Roto 11 '02-'03), and I mentioned your discovery. We wondered aloud which mission's commander would have been using Iltis and which level of command. UNPROFOR? IFOR? SFOR? Company? Battalion? Contingent? Then we remembered he had a nice diesel Jeep SUV as his rover, and a LAVIII if there was anywhere he needed to go with his manoeuver elements. There were Iltis' (Ilti?) in Transport, all you needed were valid 404s and a place to go. So, a little more specificity on the CFR and time frame will help ID the who and what of you vehicle.
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- 74-????? M151A2
- 70-08876 M38A1
- 53-71233 M100CDN trailer

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  #10  
Old 18-07-11, 17:08
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When I first started working on my M151A2 I came on this forum and asked many questions, and asked for photos. One of the comments I got was from Colin MacGregor Stevens was something to the effect of "Pick the era you want to represent...." I'm glad he mentioned that. Because once I did, it made things easy.

With an Iltis it is crucial you do this.

The Iltis was used with both Tac Rad systems (VRC-12 and then later IRIS/TCCCS), and in the case of Bosnia, the Iltis was used during in that Theatre when the transition from one system to the other occurred.

Both Theatres (Afghanistan and Bosnia) saw things happen to these vehicles that went against some of the "rules" at the time:

- In Bosnia, the Area of Operation was much larger than what TAC Rad was designed for, hence HF being fitted to an Iltis. Either system could have been employed (TCCCS or VRC-12), but not concurrently.

- In Afghanistan, the Iltis utilized TCCCS (and possibly the 117F HF) and was on its last legs prior to disposal, so what ever you could dream up was only a visit to the Mat Tech away who basically had "carte blanc" to make changes to the vehicles. They did not however have VRC-12 stuff, and the rules for TCCCS Installations were quite rigid and rarely deviated from due to COMSEC considerations.

The point i'm trying to make is that i'm seeing all kinds of references to Afghanistan and the late days of Bosnia, GPS Mounts (or is it actually a TCCCS Control Indicator Mount?), yet details about VRC-12/MT-1029 18 Pin Connections, Dog Houses etc etc.

By all means do what you want as they are your vehicles, just be aware of those facts, and that guys like me will probably ask why TCCCS stuff is being used in conjunction with VRC-12 stuff (which didn't happen), or why VRC-12 stuff is being used on a vehicle trying to depict the post GWOT era (which also didn't happen). Your either restoring something to represent and era, or your simply just owning an MV. When these cross over is when things become muddy and you end up with this:



Maybe I take it personally as I deployed numerous times on both of those Operations, but now I digress....
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Last edited by Scott Bentley; 18-07-11 at 17:18.
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  #11  
Old 25-06-11, 06:20
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Jon Skagfeld Jon Skagfeld is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamynachos View Post
Would both the Rt-524 and the Prc-77 in the am2060 be hooked into the intercom or just the 524.
The intercom feature is/was found only in crewed vehicles, i.e. tanks.

Then, you need C2296, C2297, C2298, C2299 Control Boxes all cabled into a 1780 Control Unit.

Then, each crewman would have intercom and potential radio transmission capabilities, depending on certain switch positions.
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  #12  
Old 23-06-11, 00:34
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Dual sets were used for maintaining a net on two frequencies. The other role of using dual RT-524 was to use the second RT-524 set to receive on one frequency and then re-transmit the signal on a second frequency. The principle is the same as a commercial or amateur radio repeater. That way, two stations who can not recieve and transmit to each other directly, can work each other through the dual station.

Yes, but in order to do that you must have a C2299 Control Box fitted, with the appropriate cabling.

My M38A1CDN3's whole history was with 1RCR, so I mounted dual radios as C/S 91 (Sig O attach/posted to 1RCR).So, I'm surmising that the Sig O, being part of the CO's Rover group, could position himself wherever he saw fit in order to facilitate any retransmission requirement.

I installed an RT-524A and an AN/VRC-125 in an AN/VRC-49 configuration...the 125 working down to the coys, the 524 working up to Bde.
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  #13  
Old 23-06-11, 01:44
chris vickery's Avatar
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So, were R-442s used by our units? As I understand it, the 442 could monitor coy, platoon or section level radio transmissions and then pass it along to higher levels (Bde) etc by utilizing the RT524 set?
Was it common then to use different frquencies in order to keep Bde level comms open rather than be cluttered up with excess transmission or was it a case of transmission distance which relegated the use of R442 sets as monitoring units within coys?
Sorry for my ignorance as I'm no radio techie.
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3RD Echelon Wksp

1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC
1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC
1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army
1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR
1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer
1943 Converto Airborne Trailer
1983 M1009 CUCV

RT-524, PRC-77s,
and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and.......

OMVA, MVPA, G503, Steel Soldiers
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  #14  
Old 24-06-11, 15:04
Steamynachos Steamynachos is offline
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How about when they had a rt-524 mounted beside a prc-77 in a apc or iltis what would that be called?
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  #15  
Old 24-06-11, 16:03
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That would just be a vehicular mounted RT524 in an AN/VRC-46 configuration.The AN/PRC-77 beside it is just that...a manpack.

However, if you have the RT 524 mounted as above and an RT-841 mounted on the AM 2060 Power Tray Assembly, it would then be an AN/GRC-160. The accessory pack would be issued for the "77" so that it could be used as a vehicular radio, or for use as a manpack.

Taking the above paragraph further, If the RT-841 was mounted "permanently", i.e. no accessory pack provided, it would then be an AN/VRC-64.

Clear as mud, but it covers the ground.
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Last edited by Jon Skagfeld; 24-06-11 at 16:04. Reason: Correct config
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