Restoration of a Chevrolet WA

[Philippe Jeanneau]

Note: this thread was split off from Rear Cargo Bed 1939 Chevrolet WA...

I must be off my rocker for getting into a new project, but here I go... I just managed to purchase another 39 (1.5) ton truck with an open cab, which maybe gives me two options for a recreation...

[Philippe Jeanneau]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Philippe, you’re making great progress with getting all that fire fighting equipment off the chassis. Is the drivetrain in good condition?

Hello Hanno,

Unfortunately the drivetrain needs some work... I have to find a front prop shaft (similar to last photo) to replace the fire pump under the seat; besides pulling the engine out which is a nice boat anchor!

I have done my best to try to free-up the pistons with mystery oil and liquid wrench (completely filled all cylinders) over the past two weeks... After I did not succeed with the hand crank, I tried using my jeep in 4WD to rock back and forth... Completely frozen still

Believe now that the cast iron pistons are fused to the cylinder walls after 35 years of sitting in a field without any protection... A real shame!

[David Herbert]

Don't give up on the engine that easily. Any engine of that age will need stripping and at least some engineering. The key is whether there are cracks from frost damage and are the bores rusted to an extent that it can't be bored. Pistons and bearings are cheap and this is a very common engine so parts are available.

I suggest pulling the head and cleaning the bores as well as possible from above. Clean out all the resulting crud, re-oil the bores and try the Jeep rocking trick every week or so. If it does move you will get oil on the driveway so you need something to catch it. If all else fails the pistons can be pressed out once the engine is dismantled.

Good luck. David

[Lynn Eades]

When the head is off, put a little diesel in the bore with a bit of rag and set fire to it. (a small quantity) let it burn quietly for half an hour. it will heat things up a little, expanding the rings etc.

[David Herbert]

Lynn, Good idea.

David

[Philippe Jeanneau]

Hello Lynn,

Thank you for the tip, I am closer to removing the cylinder head off... Any surprises to watch out for? Then I will try your diesel fuel/fire trick and see if I can get the engine loose... Given the amount of time it has been sitting, it would be a miracle to get this thing to run again...

[Philippe Jeanneau]

The frame is finally cleaned and painted... Quite a job without a sandblaster. Next, I have to clean the rear axle, torque tube, springs and backing plates, but stuck between deciding to pull the engine or remove the head-trying to see if it can be saved... I was however able to remove that nasty contraption that was the old fire water pump. It probably weighed 300 lbs!

[Paul Singleton]

If it was me, I would remove the cylinder head and then try to free up the engine. With the engine bolted in the truck it is secure in that you could be more aggressive in trying to get the engine to turn. Also you can determine the condition, and if you don’t think it is worth saving at least it will be quite a bit lighter to remove.

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Philippe

Slowly remove all the loose stuff first...... distributor, carb, manifolds(carefull with the bolts..... valve cover.... the whole valve trainrocker assembly has to come out to be able easily reach the 2 head bolts located underneath the rocker shaft..... May want to drain oil pan and remove....... BUT....... have a large catch pan for the drippings oil pan.

I have had good results from using a soft pin square 3x3 square section and hammering on the piston.....after oil has soaked....... who knows what you will find inside the piston....mice nest, nuts from squirrels..... make sure you clean it all out.

Before hammering with a solid 2 pounder look underneath and out which piston is in a parlty rotated spot....halfway down or up ......and start on those first no point hammering on a piston at TDC up or down.

Later down the road if you decide to pull the engine out you may want to remove the tranny engine as one unit....... then remove the tranny..... you will not be able to remove the clutch pack or flywheel with out pulling out the whole crank assembly from the block after loosingoff the rods andleaving the pistons in place....... and you will need to remove the front timing wheel cover and the plate behind it....... DO NOT FORGET THE TWO BOTTOM CREWS that goes through the front bearing cap and ties up to the front cover......

Without being able to rotate the crank taking out the clutch, flywheel and bell housing is "impossible"....... so pulling up the crank and flywheel/clutch as a whole assembly is a HD back straining exercise. I can provide pistures if necessary.....

Lots of those parts can be rebuilt or use as trading chips ......... a good oil pan with all the oil trough/channels inside is worth its weight in gold.....

Good luck

Bob C

[Lynn Eades]

Before you start hammering the pistons, light a diesel fire as I suggested before. The reason is that the fire will slowly heat the piston and in turn will expand the rings. As the rings heat and expand, they will move around the bore breaking free any rust that is bonding them to the bore. So, use a small amount of diesel. It won't burn without something like a bit of rag in there. As the last of it burns, is when most of the heat will travel through the metal. It takes time to generate the heat. Once that's done a bit of light oil in the bores to soak for a while will help. Maybe after that, a judicious pry both ways might get things moving. You will feel better about your bores and pistons if you are not trying to hammer the snot out of them. Take your time. good luck.

[Bob Carriere]

I do have an old block we just took part and it is stuck fast real good......crank is out and we salvaged the flywheel, bell housing and clutch pack......now is the time to try the burning diesel trick and will post the results.......

Bob C

[Ganmain Tony]

Would Kero be an alternative to Diesel Lynn?

Not trying to muddy the waters, just that I have a fair bit of Kero and no Diesel.

[Lynn Eades]

Tony, give it a go. Be carefull!

[Paul Singleton]

Originally Posted by Ganmain Tony

Would Kero be an alternative to Diesel Lynn?

Not trying to muddy the waters, just that I have a fair bit of Kero and no Diesel.

Kerosene should be fine. It’s just basically a more refined diesel fuel. Kerosene burns cleaner than diesel fuel and used in heating appliances and jet engines. I had a kerosene portable heater and found that it worked fine with low sulfur diesel without any problems. The flash point is nearly the same.

[Bob Carriere]

....and you can roast some marshmellows......

[Lynn Eades]

Basically a bit of diesel sitting on top of a piston would be difficult to get burning. The bit of rag acts like a candle wick and probably generates not much more heat.

[Philippe Jeanneau]

Ok, I am now convinced to do the extra work (also wonder how we went from Rear cargo Bed to this...) and remove the cylinder head hoping that I can get the engine free and then deal with the rest... I am however surprised and maybe a little disturbed that (if I understood Robert correctly) to remove the clutch and pressure plate I have to remove the crankshaft??? That seems ridiculous- I have to criticize the (beyond) poor design if it is the case...

Here I was hoping to:

1- Remove valve train
2- Remove head bolts and lift head...
3- Try Diesel fuel with a rag... Head has been soaking in Mystery oil and Penetrating Oil for 8 weeks...

If I get that lucky I would then rotate engine, clean the crud and...

1- Remove the oil pan
2- Remove the pistons and check for broken rings...

Once that is done I would remove the 4 speed gearbox... I understand that 2 bolts hold it from the underside... After that I would also:

1- Remove pressure plate and clutch disk from the bellhousing... Again, if I understood Robert correctly, that cannot be done without removing the crankshaft?? I am in pure disbelief...

If so, that is pure insanity!... So, to do a regular clutch job on a 216 engine you have to remove the crank??? I am completely shocked and surprised by the very poor design... and from GM at that.

Sorry for the rant, but I had never seen anything like it... Still in shock!

[gjamo]

You can remove the clutch and flywheel through the bottom of the bellhousing. It's not easy but can be done.

[Paul Singleton]

The clutch does come out through the bottom of the bell housing. I have found that holding the pressure plate up and getting the clutch disc out first works better for me. It can be a finger pinching job if you’re not careful.

[Lynn Eades]

I think it is about not being able to turn the crank, is the problem.(i think?)
Normally there is no need to remove the crank.

[Tony Smith]

That's it. You don't need to remove the crank, but you need to be able to rotate the Flywheel to 6 positions (or even 3 positions, and do 2 bolts at a time) to remove the bolts holding the Pressure Plate to the Flywheel.

You DO need the gearbox off and the lower cover off the bellhousing. To re-install the clutch, you will need a spare/old gearbox input shaft or a centering tool (that often comes with the clutch kit these days).

However, if you're going to pull the motor out to eventually rebuild it, I wouldn't worry too much now about removing the clutch while it's in the truck. Get working on seeing if you free up the engine to decide if it's worthwhile rebuilding it, and IF you do pull the engine out, then take off the bellhousing and remove the clutch on your workbench or even on the ground.

[gjamo]

You can not remove the bellhousing with the flywheel in place.

[Lynn Eades]

As Gjamo says, you cannot remove the bell housing until you have removed the flywheel. This goes right across the GM products, including GM U.K. (Bedford) as well as my 1942 Dodge. (Chrysler) It is a pretty common construction method.

[Ganmain Tony]

Just quickly - gave the Kero thing a go with an old Flatty I have sitting on the engine stand.
Worked a treat - no violent fires, just a good slow, albeit smoky burn which put badly needed heat into the block and piston.
Still had to give the rods some hits with a copper hammer. But they are all out and I reckon 7 are reuseable. The 8th has too much corrosion damage from exposure to water and air.

What kind of Chop takes the plugs out of a working motor he knows is going to sit around for a long time in a paddock?

[Paul Singleton]

I purchased an old pickup for parts years ago and it was also missing the spark plugs. I asked the seller about it and he said he needed spark plugs for his tractor and the truck wasn’t going to be used again. I guess priorities at the time were more important than someone buying the truck years later.

[Ganmain Tony]

Originally Posted by Paul Singleton

I purchased an old pickup for parts years ago and it was also missing the spark plugs. I asked the seller about it and he said he needed spark plugs for his tractor and the truck wasn’t going to be used again. I guess priorities at the time were more important than someone buying the truck years later.

I'm not one to Judge Paul. I just think they should die of a painful STD and rot in hell..

[Philippe Jeanneau]

Hello Lynn,

After waiting and waiting for about 3 months (soaking the engine with penetrating oil) but mainly mystery oil; then after about 4 hrs of work, moving the flywheel tooth by tooth in both directions with a flat bar against the housing, I managed to get the engine freed up!!

Then I remember the diesel, but decided to use it as a cleaner... I proceeded to fill the cylinders with diesel fuel with a hand sprayer (works great) and went on to spin and spin the motor for quite a while and getting all the crud and rust from the cylinders...

Once the pan was off, I was able to see that #3 and #5 were the problem cylinders with some rust on the bottom... I do not see any scoring on the cylinders other than rust, so I hope to be able to put it together and fire it up... It has been about 35 years since this thing has come to life... In the meantime, I put a couple of ounces of mystery oil in each cylinder to avoid any issues while it seats for a while longer...

As for the oil pan gasket, it looks as it could be tricky to get back on and avoid problems/leaks...

Am I better off trimming the end cap pieces a little short and use RTV sealant to make the difference, or should they be trimmed exactly to fit the end caps on the block?

The set U purchased from Felpro (0S 5000 C) also gives you 4 end pieces when you only need 2...

After searching online for information but not finding anything concrete, are you expected to have less problems by:

A) Setting the long and end cap pieces pieces on the block with RTV sealant..

B) Setting the end cap pieces on the block and the long pieces on the pan with RTV sealant...

Some old timers recommend setting the gasket on the pan with RTV and letting it dry completely, then before installing the pan use either a light coat of grease on the surface of the cork or a thin coat of Permatex #3 aviation sealant... That way you can still remove the pan if you have to without destroying the gasket...

Your advice appreciated here, since I do not want to do the job twice, but once once and right!

[Dave Newcomb]

Those old fire trucks are excellent material- I have parted out 3 of them for other uses, all under 5,000 total miles each! The last one is becoming a Military G8T Ford. and as for the long WB; the Ford frame was drilled for both WB's! The correct rivet holes were there for the short WB spring hangers! Looks great. I donated the Fire apparatus to a local Fireman's Museum. Newc

[Bob Carriere]

I have had luck with glueing the gasket to the pan........ NOT ON the block

Using Permartex in a very thin coat on the pan sides, corners and over the bearing cap......... I usually take fine sewing thread and lace the side gasket using the bolt holes.....find the finest thread your wife has in her sewing basket....... it will hold the gasket in place while drying....... I glue the bearing cap gasket on to the cap........ trimming the end of the gasket is done during a dry run before the Permatex is applied and that I fill the corner with a good an mount of Permatex before dropping the pan back on....... it is wowth waiting overnight to let everything set properly....except for the Permatex aded to the four corners. I do not bother to remove the thread as bolting will shear off any excess. I use old HD axle grease that has almost hardened to putty to give the cork a verylight smear of grease. I like to hand tighten snug and a few hours later give it the last final 1/4 turn with a screw driver nut driver.

Easy to to when the engine is up side down on the engine stand..... BUT the real fun is when you have to remove the pan two years later from underneath and everything comes out in one piece and can be reseud again.

Same applies to the top valve cover and the side valve covers.....even if if the Permatex is not fully set, the fine thread will keep things from sliding.

How many think of modifying the two bottom screws of the timing chain cover by drilling/tapping the bearing cap for bolts..... so that the timing cover can be removed at a later date WITHOUT having to drop the oil pan.....

Cheers

[Philippe Jeanneau]

After some prep work with the starter and carburetor, plus fixing the battery tray and making a new fuel line, I was able to finally crank this thing over until I almost got it to run, almost!... BUT after a while, I was almost done with the battery and also knew from the sound of the engine cranking over that I had bigger problems...

Today I got a hold of a compression tester and confirmed my worse fears... After running the test a couple of times I got the following...

#1 60 lbs
#2 00 lbs
#3 20 lbs
#4 90 lbs
#5 15 lbs
#6 90 lbs

So, despite the mystery oil treatment and diesel fuel, I have 3 cylinders with a great problem... I have decided to remove the cylinder head, oil pan and pull the pistons out... I am sure that the rings on #2 #3 and #5 must be still stuck to the pistons, some partially, some fully or perhaps even broken...

With any luck I hope to remove the stuck rings and replace them with a new set of STD rings after cleaning the cylinders with a hone... Then I will re-assemble everything and hope to get it running this way. It may not be ideal, but the whole machine shop/professional rebuild is not an option at the moment...

A real shame that the damage to this engine seems to come from just being left to the elements for 35 years... I was sure I could get it to run after freeing it up, but that would have been too easy! I will tackle it Monday and see what other surprises we have... Still, I am determined to get this thing running before going for plan B.