What fuel is best to use?

[Chris Preston]

'Afternoon All,

One of our Museum members has raised a good question (and one that I've thought of myself, on occasion) - what fuel should we be using in our vehicles?

We have three CMP's from the Second World War, five Jeeps from 1946 - 1968, several M-37 based vehicles, one Daimler Ferret (which we're already using Premium Fuel for) and several none-operational vehicles that we hope to have running someday.

Also, what's the opinion on additives such as lead supplements and octane boosters?

Cheers,

Chris Preston,
Victoria, BC,
Canada

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Highest octane you can get as it is usually is the only one that doesn't contain any ethanol, but check to make sure. Ethanol softens the old rubber in your fuel pump and hoses. Then always keep the gas in the tank for no more than 4-5 months because any longer and it tuns to an un-burnable turpentine that will also clog your carburetor. I've been told gas stabilizer intended to lengthen the life of ethanol blends won't work on non-ethanol 'high test' so keeping it fresh is your best bet.

The lead substitute is meant as a lubricant for regular, non-hardened valves (which most CMPs are either because they are original or rebuilt that way). I don't use it but probably would if I drove my vehicles more.

[rob love]

Having been through the trials and tribulations of stuck needle valves, excessive pump failures, cracking rubber lines, and dealing with skunky fuel, I strongly suggest premium in anything with a carb. We had an in-tank electric fuel pump on a deuce actually stripped of it's coating in the space of a year, making the bottom of the fuel pump chamber an inch of sticky goo. The pump had to be replaced.

Edited to add: I forgot about the sticking valves. Seemed like my tractor was regularly throwing valve pushrods, especially in the winter. It now only burns premium for the past two winters and I have had no more sticking valves.

Ethanol is a gimmick and a curse brought to us by the corn lobby, and enacted by governments trying to somehow appear green. If you merely consider the fuel you will end up throwing away because of it going prematurely skunky, that alone should be enough to convince you to pay the extra 20¢ a liter for premium.

There is a reason why the owners manuals for any modern lawn mower, chain saw or other small engine states "Do not use ethanol fuel".

As for additives, since going over to the premium, I have not used any additives. Time will tell if that is the correct move. We are above 30°C these days, so if a vehicle was going to vapour-lok, now would be the time.

[Bob Carriere]

Getting harder to find but there is a list of vendors available on the web somewhere that lists. in Canada and US, which brands are really ethanol free.

I am lucky to have a Card Lock system available in my rural area that carries high test with no ethanol....... use it for everything gasoline run. I always leave my tanks full when the vehicle is stored for the Winter. All my gas is stored in plastic containers and keeps well over a year tightly sealed.

Many antique car forums in the USA have discussed this issue extensively and have quoted reputable sources and all support Premium fuel and consider most fuel and oil additives as wasting money. Time and time again it has been pointed out that changing the oil on a more frequent / regular basis ( and mileage alone is not a good criteria) is more important than using premium oil. Cheap insurance as they say.

Cheers
Found one site https://www.pure-gas.org/

[cletrac (RIP)]

A flat tappet cam like old vehicles use has to have a zinc additive in the oil or the cam lobes won't last. There aren't many oils that have it but quite a few heavy duty diesel oils do have zinc.

[rob love]

Good point on the oil. There is a chart on a site somewhere that compared the Zinc levels of diesel oil. Walmart oil actually came out as one of the higher levels, although that may vary since it may well be "jugged" at regional contractors.

Another option is the high mileage oils. There are a number of them at Canadian tire these days. Most or all brag about their increased levels of Zinc.

You can also add an additive like ZDP. I ordered 10 bottles off ebay which will last my little fleet for a while.

[Chris Preston]

'Afternoon All,

Many Thanks for your insight and suggestions with this topic - it's pretty much what we thought, but it's always nice to get confirmation from those who have more experience.

Cheers,

Chris - In Victoria, BC

[Robert Bergeron]

For what it is worth , there is one alternative to useless, ethanol tainted, low quality gasoline : Avgas . It's rating is 100 Octane but it contains lead , high altitude additives and it is vapour lock proof . Use it in all my HMV ´s . It stays fresh , does not stale , needs no additives and the valve stems are lubricated. The engines start any time of year , any temperature even after sitting idle for 6-7 and in one case even 9 months. ... Added bonus it is blue , smells nice and there is no road tax....It sells for around $1.75 -$2 a litre . May be illegal , don't know , and it's no excuse. Stupid idea to add Ethanol to gasoline in the first place , it ruins expensive equipment and adds maintenance costs and troubles . It will be phased out soon ( years ) so use it while you can...but it is difficult to procure if you don't own a plane .When traveling i use Premium unleaded Shell V Power. Reputedly it does not contain ethanol . There i said it. Read it before i delete it . Cheers and very best good luck to all.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Ethanol only exists because of (misguided) government requirements and subsidies. It takes more energy (usually from fossil fuels) to make a litre of ethanol than a litre ethanol is capable of producing. Throw in the destruction of parts and equipment and it's really dumb product.

[David Dunlop]

Robert. Interesting comments on AVGAS.

In the past 10 years, a couple of B-17's have dropped by at the local aviation museum for visits. Sally B was one, I cannot recall the other at the moment. In chatting with both crews about the rising costs of gas and oil and the availability of parts these days I was surprised by their comments. Both stated their was still enough interest and support from the general public to continue funding operating expenses each year with no problem. Also, there are apparently enough spare parts sources still around to keep the existing global fleet of B-17's flying for many decades to come.

What had both groups a bit nervous about the long term future of flying vintage piston powered military aircraft, was the slow and steady decline in octane rating for avgas. Something which I had not thought of at all. These great engines can still run on today's avgas, but they are not able to produce the power levels they were designed for during the war. With that handicap, there performance is a lot less, which directly affects what the aircraft can do in certain flight situations. Both crews felt that any further decline in octane ratings may soon result in these aircraft no longer able to fly/perform safely.

I could be wrong, but I think wartime avgas ratings were up around 130 to 140. When I was a kid. BA Oil sold premium automotive gas with a rating of 98. Things have definitely changed.

David

[Phil Waterman]

Hi David

One of the guya in our local MV club is a aviation mechanic, for couple of years he was working on restoring a Supper G Constellation for Lufftansa one of the issues they had already reallized that they would have to derate the engines because of the availablity of high octane AVGAS just isnt there any more. Major impact was on takeoff weights and throttle settings.

Cheers Phil

On the topic of Ethanol in todays fuel one of the guys in our club just had a problem with brand new fuel injected rated hose going soft on the first tank of gas. Cause is still unknown was it E85 fuel, or fuel with much higher ethanol than the pump rated amount. Or was it miss market fuel line.

[Robert Bergeron]

David/ Phil , you are both right on the spot with the Avgas issue for high compression super-charged engines . My engine is a low compression version and it used to thrive on 80-87 Octane leaded Avgas ( Red) . It contained four times less lead than today's 100 LL ( Low lead) Avgas ( Blue ) . Warbirds used to run in 100-130 Octane Avgas ( Green ) . Those were the days ! Still, for HMV's 100 LL Avgas mixed 75-25 with Shell V Power Super Unleaded with no Ethanol crap is the best way to go : Lead to lubricate the valves , NO vapour lock and long long lasting in the tanks. Works perfect in my Continental C-145 2H air cooled windmill . Cheers . Thanks for adding to the discussion .

[Harry Moon]

In addition to the destructive and counterproductive effects of Ethanol add soy based wiring! It seams that modern wiring uses soy derivatives to reduce the content of oil. It is also very tasty and attractive to rats mice squirrels and attracts them to eating your wiring. so when that check engine light comes on look for a rats nest under the hood, dash trunk or anywhere they fit. Both my van and our car got infested, now in addition to copious amounts of roundup I stock rat and other poisons and have got ahead of them. get infested in my neighborhood every time they knock down another house

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Harry Moon

In addition to the destructive and counterproductive effects of Ethanol add soy based wiring! It seams that modern wiring uses soy derivatives to reduce the content of oil. It is also very tasty and attractive to rats mice squirrels and attracts them to eating your wiring. so when that check engine light comes on look for a rats nest under the hood, dash trunk or anywhere they fit. Both my van and our car got infested, now in addition to copious amounts of roundup I stock rat and other poisons and have got ahead of them. get infested in my neighborhood every time they knock down another house

Where they fit??!!...WHERE THEY FIT!!!!??? Where DON'T they fit????

Ah HATES mouses. Dooz 'em in every chance I gets...peanut butter is their weakness. My dogs see raccoons and possums off the property so no worries there. People too if need be (check out the pic, tell me if you'd risk it).

Unintended consequences rather go against that whole 'green' thing...

[Robert Bergeron]

Harry from Burnaby , my friend , fellow Fort Rodd Hill visitor , brother in CMP's and everything MLU have you been drinking tonight ? Soy based electrical wiring ? Sounds as crazy as ethanol in gas but just can't be . Can it ? Come on !

[chris vickery]

Don't know about the rest of you guys but I am a believer in MMO. This product is talked about on all the forums in the USA related to old engines. Marvel Mystery Oil is an additive that seems to work like magic on old engines. I have no idea what's in it but from my experience all my engines work better with it. MMO can be added to the crankcase oil or it can be added to the fuel as an additive. I suspect that in the oil it has some detergent qualities which will free up everything it touches. In the fuel system it also seems to clean things up, even gunky under performing carbs and fuel systems seem to benefit. Available at Walmart.

[Robert Bergeron]

My friend Dan who flies a Mooney ( Harry take no offense please ) , with a higher compression aircraft engine swears by MMO to prevent sticking valves . He puts it in the gas tank and the crankcase. I have a hint he drinks a shot or two once in a while also.

[Harry Moon]

Originally Posted by Robert Bergeron

Harry from Burnaby , my friend , fellow Fort Rodd Hill visitor , brother in CMP's and everything MLU have you been drinking tonight ? Soy based electrical wiring ? Sounds as crazy as ethanol in gas but just can't be . Can it ? Come on !

http://www.ctvnews.ca/autos/they-lov...ucks-1.3254895
It should be illegal! Gin and Tonic!

[Robert Bergeron]

Harry , i am floored . I tought ethanol was stupid. That is even worse . The eco lobby is stupid and blind . Yes we should be concerned about the environment but not by creating worse problems. Extremism in anything is a bad idea . Except in choices for beer of course . .. Give me my Guinness and forget that IPA !