Morris Commercial Head Stud Removal.

[T Creighton]

Does anyone know of any other methods for removing 70 year old studs?

I have four Morris E H engines in various condition and need to select one for a rebuild as I am making a start on the Morris Commercial C8 project that has been sitting in the “too hard corner" of the shed for nearly 7 years.
I have only just acquired enough parts to get the project going again.
There are only 2 blocks that seem suitable but I will need stuff from at least one of the others.
The engine re conditioner seems to thinks parts should not be too much of a problem but I have to take everything in to him to evaluate. It will be mix and match.
He needs all the studs removed from the block that we will finally use so I am experimenting with the 2 unusable blocks.
I have drilled some using a centering jig and will hopefully clean out the threads with a tap (7/16” x 16 tpi BSF) when I get hold of one.
I have put three runs of arc weld along the length of the exposed stud and then wound them out using pipe tongs with an extended handle and a lot of force, but although this worked on one block, with 7 coming out.
There was a plate on this block with a reconditioning date of April 1954 so these studs would have been replaced then.
On the other block the internal thread was damaged using the welder heating method as the stud thread froze up again halfway out.
Without any heating one stud just snapped off.
I am using the arc welder for heating as I got rid of my gas welding set due to the cost of bottle rental.
Thanks in advance.
Cheers, Terry.

[Mike Kelly]

Hi Terry

I have the same problem. My Morris Commercial engines , the six cyl. OH types as fitted in the CS8 and PU , have stuck studs . Somebody suggested drilling the studs out and using helicoils to replace the original threads in the block - that sounds a little brutal to me .

I did try a stud remover over one of the studs , after heating the stud , I applied reasonable pressure, but nothing happened .

BTW a friend here had two C8's , they had originally been the 2 pounder portee models . We found another portee C8 in the old Kilmore wreckers many years ago, it had been turned upside down , we heard later on, the whole yard was melted down as scrap . A guy in NSW had two of them as well , in rough cond. I have pics somewhere .

The guy from Norway had many NOS engine parts for the 4 cyl E engines ..don't know what became of it all .Hughes in Sydney road, Melbourne had some engine spares too.My friend with the C8's bought a new complete engine from them .

[Lynn Eades]

Terry, give me a call in the morning.

[Petr Brezina]

Well working method on broken studs is to weld on it a nut. I worked as a last resort on two stuck studs on my flatty.
Give it a good thick weld and I'm sure it will get loose!

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Petr

To add to welding on a nut to turn out a broken stud or bolt. I've had good success with this method as well. Couple added steps, once the nut is weld on I like to use an impact wrench with torque turned down to vibrate the bolt. Also I've had much better results with impact over long breaker bars. Vibrate then soak let stand over night and try again. Also had this trick taking several tries when the nut breaks off, amazing how far below the surface of the block you can successfully weld a nut on and remove.

There have been several good past threads on this topic.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

some of those engine studs may actually enter into the water jacket and the end of the stud blooms with rust.

...on particularly tough broken studs I have found that in addition to welding a nut with the Mig..... I let it get cold....... then heat up the cast iron mass with the Oxy -Acet. torches..... removing a broken spring bolt stud from a HUP cast axle takes a lot of external heat.... maybe 5 or 10 minutes of heating with the torches due to the massive heat sink.

I prefer to use a box wrench and vibrate by hand back and forth. If it moves 1/16 either way you have it made. In some odd situation I welded a handle on to the nut before welding the nut on the stud..... makes it easier when doing a tractor engine in situ and the stud is in vertical position.

I have done the same thing on exhaust stud in tractor engines...uses a lot of gas but it works.

Cheers

PS..... not sure how you are making out Phil with the Polar Vortex but we now have 3 to 4 inches of fresh snow on the ground in Ottawa....... I may turn on the house Xmas lights to piss off the neighbours.

[T Creighton]

Hi Mike, Phil, Petr, Lynn and Bob.
Thanks for the ideas. The consensus seems to be to weld a nut on the stud so I shall try that. If it works well on one stud I will need quite a few nuts although it may be possible to re use some.
Where should the nut be? Near the block surface or further up the stud so as to allow for penetrating fluid around the thread.
I don't want to run out of practice studs before I get the process sorted.
The block in the centre of the pic is probably the one I will get rebuilt.
I could be still doing this when our snow starts falling and as Lynn will know that will be a very long time.
Cheers, Terry

[Lynn Eades]

Terry, weld the nut down close to the block, so that you get the most heat, relative expansion, etc. after the weld has cooled a bit and while there is still some heat in it. that is a good time to put in some more penetrating oil.
(all said with not much specific experience!)
You will have more patience than me, but don't wait until it snows.

[Jacques Reed]

From what I have read and heard The welded nut method is by far the best way to remove broken studs from a block but just thought I would add this method to the box of tricks and for general interest.

I will be the first to admit this method is labour intensive but it did get two broken studs out of my Flathead Ford block in 2002 BDP (Before Digital Photography) without the use of oxy-acetylene or MIG.

I read about this technique in "Restored Cars Magazine" in the late nineties.
The article said to drill a hole in the stud and then using a junior hacksaw blade in a holder carefully cut two notches on either side inside the hole in the broken stub being careful not to go too deep to the internal threads. The stud can then usually be screwed out with an easy out or in my case they screwed out with a screwdriver after I tapped the sides of the stud with a pin punch.

My concern was how to drill a hole down a stud without wandering off center or drilling it at an angle and thereby damaging the threads in the block.
The solution was a $40 small drill press I picked up at a garage sale. I then cut down the post and reversed the drill head on it to get the chuck close to the block. I used studs to bolt the drill press base to the block then a careful centre punch followed by a centering bit before drillling got me straight down the centre of the stud.

I think I used a 3/16" diameter drill down the stud. I made a blade holder and ground a bit of the hacksaw blade away to fit the 3/16" diameter hole.

Long time ago but probably took just over half an hour to get the first one out. Second one went a bit faster.

Don't profess this to be a great method but it did work and unlike some bad tips in books about using easy outs to remove broken studs you won't wind up with a broken easy out stuck in the block!

Cheers,

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Jacques

Good little trick with the bench top drill press. These little drill presses are amazinglying easy to bolt down for tough drilling problems, giving much better results than hand drills. I've never successfully center drilled a broken off studs or bolt with hand driĺl. Will have too try your ground down saw blade trick.

When I was restoring my Pat 12 needed line drill a most of rivits, looked at buying a magnet based drill several hundred dollars instead went with one of these little drill presses under $40. Did some simple modification to make it even more versatile. Will dig out some photos and share them.

Cheers Phil

[Jacques Reed]

Hi Phil,

Look forward to seeing your setup too.

Slight correction to my previous post:
I think I probably drilled the broken stud with a 5/16" drill not a 3/16" drill as the Ford blocks are tapped 7/16-14 UNC. that would allow enough "meat" to prevent hitting the crest of the internal threads during drilling even if slightly off centre. It also kept the junior hacksaw blade more rigid from having to be ground too narrow for the hole.
Probably best to start with a smaller drill and see how it is positioned before going to either a 1/4" or 5/16" drill. Main thing is not to drill so much that there is only the remains of the stud left it the internal threads. Then you will have problems cleaning them out.
I did that once on another part with a broken stud and it was a disaster.

Cheers,

[Mike Kelly]

I believe that a oxy cutting flame will not effect cast iron. Would it be possible to blow out the broken stud with a oxy/acc torch ?

Another method https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSOg7aQ44eg

[Lynn Eades]

Jacques, I put a head on(because the Ford studs are a close fit in the holes in the V8 head), made a sleeve for the stud hole, and bored a a pilot hole through the sleeve on the lathe. This was my method to get a hole through the centre of my broken studs. It worked well.

[T Creighton]

Originally Posted by Jacques Reed

; going to either a 1/4" or 5/16" drill. Main thing is not to drill so much that there is only the remains of the stud left it the internal threads. Then you will have problems cleaning them out.
I did that once on another part with a broken stud and it was a disaster.
Cheers,

Oh dear! I have done that with 4 holes on the second choice block so I guess I have a disaster on my hands if I have to use that one.
The welding a nut on process is working well although each nut needs to be re heated again at least twice in most cases.
I am using a TIG torch that can hold the metal to almost melting so get good heat penetration.
On the so called good block at present it is 1 broken, 1 halfway out, 10 out clean and 3 to go.
Thanks everyone for the good ideas.
Cheers Terry

[Jacques Reed]

Hi Terry,

All may not be lost on the "B" block. The part I stuffed up was the exhaust manifold stud hole but that is subjected to a lot more heat than the head so the threads were practically welded into it over the years. Had to Heli coil it finally.

You may be able to get a few of the thread remains out of the block with a dental pick if they are not as badly siezed as my manifold stud threads were. You then may be able to get a tap started squarely to finish off the clearing of what little threads still remain in the tapped block.

Hope all goes well.

Cheers,

[T Creighton]

In case anyone is wondering as to the outcome of all of this I got my engine back a few days ago (over a year later) as a completely rebuilt short block assy.
New pistons, rings, liners, valves , guides etc and with the crankshaft/flywheel/clutch assy balanced. The pistons and rods were statically balanced.
In spite of me spending hours cleaning out and re-tapping the head stud holes the re- conditioner drilled out and helicoild the whole lot.
Nothing like doing the job properly and surprisingly not too expensive.(for the helicoils that is, I won't mention the cost of the rest of it.)
Warm regards to all.
Terry

[Tony Smith]

Awesome feeling?

[T Creighton]

Cheers for that Tony_big smiles all round.
Terry

[Mike Kelly]

You must be pleased after the long wait. I took a Morris CS8 block to be decked and bored a few months ago, I made the mistake of telling the engine machinist "I'm not in a hurry" , I will be waiting til XMAS I think.

Interesting they helicoiled the stud threads, I think it's 12mm thread, the Morris head studs in the six cyl. CS8 are that size . 12mm threads come in three thread pitches, confusing ! metric fine is either 1.5 or 1.25 pitch.

That bracket made from flat bar , on the engine front where the pulley is on the 4 cyl. , I had one but didn't know it is a 4 cyl. part. I think I threw it out !