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  #1  
Old 15-05-22, 19:44
Gary_GJK Gary_GJK is offline
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Default Understanding Br/Cdn Div Sigs, circa 1944-45

I was wondering whether anyone knows of any document or publication that explained in a bit more detail the wireless nets that a typical British or Canadian Infantry or Armoured Divisional Signals would operate, based on the later war organisations?

I have the relevant War Establishment tables for British and Canadian Divisional Signals issued from late 1943 to early 1945. I also have the Royal Signals Pocket Book, Wireless Diagrams (1945) as a reprint. Taken together these do give a good overview of the wireless links of Div Sigs, but there are still things I'd like to try and have a better understanding of.

My current understanding (excluding links to Main Corps, flank formations and air) of the Div Sigs nets in Br/Cdn Inf/Armd Divs is;
  • Div "A" Wave - on R/T, connected the Div commander with the rear link of each of his Brigade commanders, and the rear link of the Div Recce unit. Worked from command vehicle A1 in "A" Sec/Tp of Div Sigs.

  • Div "B" Wave - on W/T (CW), to same HQs and units as "A" Wave. Worked from command vehicle "A2" in "A" Sec/Tp to a CW rear link vehicle in each Bde HQ and the Recce unit.

  • Bde nets - on separate frequencies for each Bde in the Div, gave forward control for the Bde commander (from Bde Sig Sec/Tp command vehicle 1) to the rear link vehicle with each Bn/Regt in the Bde.

  • Rear Div net - on R/T. Worked from command vehicle "B1" in "B" Sec/Tp of Div Sigs and married up with the rear link set in command vehicle 2 of each Bde Sig Sec/Tp.

  • 'Rear' (or "B" Echelon?) Bde net - on R/T. I'm not sure if there were separate frequencies for each Bde, given the link to the Rear Div (command vehicle "B1"). This also maintained links with attached S&T, Med and Wksp units. Also in Bde Sigs Sec, further sets linking to unit "A" Echelon vehicles behind the immediate combat area.

  • Div Arty net - on R/T. Separate frequencies for each Regt in Div Arty (so five in Inf Divs and four in Armd Divs). Gave CRA forward control to the rear link of each Regt worked from his command vehicle. Each Field Regt Sec/Tp also provided forward control vehicle for the Regtl CO to each Bty in the Regt; Atk and LAA Regts had a rear link det only. Command vehicle also provided rear link for CRA that married up with forward control of Commander Corps RA (CCRA). Btys in all Div Arty Regts provided their own wireless, the ideal being one frequency per Bty in each Field Regt.

  • Div Engr net - on R/T and worked from the CRE's command vehicle, with forward control to the rear link of each Fd Coy/Sqn and the Fd Pk Coy/Sqn. Presumably single frequency on this net?

  • Services - on R/T. Pool command vehicles B3 and B4 in "B" Sec/Tp, one each for S&T and Med, plus pool wireless trucks for attachment to Transport Companies and Field Ambulances as required. REME/RCEME had their own wireless trucks plus a command vehicle for the commander.

  • Armoured Regts, Recce Regts, Infantry Bns, Motor Bns and MG Bns all had their own internal nets worked by unit signallers/operators. Armd and Recce Regts could require separate frequencies for each Sqn, otherwise they'd use a regimental frequency.

I did wonder if there was some kind of guide on how many frequencies a Div Sigs would have to provide, depending on the number of units in the Div, and also likely any attachments. I though I'd seen a reference to a Divisional list somewhere...

Any guidance would be appreciated.

Gary
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  #2  
Old 16-05-22, 05:15
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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Gary

I wish I had an answer, but you've posed a very specific question beyond my knowledge.

As I drilled down through the battalion organization, one thing struck me about NCO strength. http://www.bayonetstrength.uk/Britis...%20Nov1944.pdf

The bulk of the rifle battalions were Ptes and Cpls. To my mind few NCOs or WOs. I'd have expected more for some reason. As well where the various appointments were assigned. The one that caught my eye Regimental (err? Battalion) Sergeant Major was not attached at the hip to the OC or Admin O, but to the Intelligence Officer. The Intelligence staff, the Clerks and the Snipers would therefore become the RSM's direct troops.
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  #3  
Old 16-05-22, 09:16
Colin Alford Colin Alford is offline
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Gary,

The 3 Cdn Infantry Division Signals orders for Operation Overlord can be found here: https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...eel_t7619/1780

The link above is one if the net diagrams which I believe is near the tail-end of the orders (recent changes to the heritage.canadiana.ca site make scrolling through images much slower).

The frequency list is at image 1716: https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...eel_t7619/1716

These orders might help resolve some if your questions.

Colin
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Old 19-05-22, 11:47
Gary_GJK Gary_GJK is offline
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Thanks very much for that link Colin. I posted about the subject on the https://groups.io/g/wireless-set-no19 and someone provided very similar documents for 2nd Canadian Infantry Division for a couple of date points through 1944.

Overall quite similar to what I sort of thought might be the case, and providing confirmation of the alternative frequencies for the command net, rear Division net and the RA/RCA net. The 'lateral' comms for the Brigades aren't something that appear in the Royal Signals "Wireless Diagrams" booklet for July 1945. Also the Brigade "Q" nets do appear to be individual to the Brigade, with just a rear link set on the Rear Division "Q" net.

The separate frequencies for the RCE Companies do differ from the wireless diagram book, which shows all outstations on the same net as the control station in the CRE's command vehicle.

If anyone trips over something on these lines for a later war British Division, Infantry or Armoured, I'd very much like to see it!

Thanks "maple leaf eh" - compared to a US unit in particular, relatively few Sergeants on the WE for a British or Canadian Infantry Battalion, with a lot more Corporals by comparison.

Gary
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Old 19-05-22, 17:20
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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An interesting thread, Gary.

Thanks for setting it up.

David
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Old 25-06-22, 18:52
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Hello Gary.

Sorry I cannot shed much light on this topic for you, but it is headed in a very interesting direction for me.

The Canadian Marconi Company was very involved in the production, design and development of the Wireless Set No. 9, from just before the start of World war 2 to the end of the war. Not much of their production documentation has survived, but from what has, one thing that is quite noticeable is how proactive they were in canvasing both the Canadian Army and British Army regarding things they could improve upon with the No. 9 Set throughout its production.

As early as late 1942, early 1943, CMC was aware of concerns from both armies that they were running out of frequency options for their growing wireless nets. At that point in time, the bulk of their communications fell in the 2.0 to 8.0 Mc range.

While designing the Wireless Set No. 9 Mk II Cdn (which would get renamed the Wireless Set No. 52 Cdn), Canadian Marconi factored that concern into their design and this set came with three frequency bands covering from 1.75 to 16.0 Mc.

What I am curious about now is whether or not the surviving documentation from 1944 and 1945, for either the Canadian, or British Armies, shows any evidence of them taking advantage of these newly available frequencies in their various wireless nets?


David
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  #7  
Old 26-06-22, 01:47
Chris Suslowicz Chris Suslowicz is offline
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The WS52 would be considered part of the WS2 line of sets, based on the original numbering scheme from the 1930s (until things got out of hand during WW2), which was:

1 - "front line usage" (as close to the enemy as you use wireless), WS1, WS11, WS21. Intended to be Battalion to Brigade and within RA Regiments.

2 - Brigade to Division (WS 2, WS12, later the WS12HP that led to the WS53), probably also included the WS22 as a 'short range set' for divisional units and the Artillery (because the WS21 was deeply crap).

3 - Division to Corps (WS3, WS23, WS33, WS43 (Canadian). WS53 (developed from WS12HP), WS63 (Australian, I think, unless that was the 113)

4 - Corps to Army (Abandoned)

5 - GHQ to Home WS5(LP), WS5(HP)

6 - Army Chain (>1,000 miles) three were built: Aldershot, Gibraltar & Hong Kong. (Replaced by No.5HP, Marconi SWB 8E & SWB 11, (and WS 15 which was later renumbered to E 10 in the Larkspur Era (30kW SSB transmitter)).)

7 - AFV set to replace the Daylight Signalling Lamp & flag waving.

8 - Company to Battalion (once Wireless was seen to be a Good Thing), WS8, WS18, 48 (US) 58(Canadian), 68 and finally WS31 (Wireless sets split further to Platoon level with the 38, 78 & 88 sets)

9 - AFV sets (anyone getting a WS9 (British _or_ Canadian) into a WW2 AFV must have been a magician - though there was a 'vertical stack' case made for it). Canada (Marconi) took the British ST&C design and reworked it to something very much better that took readily available valves. To avoid confusion it was redesignated the WS52.) AFV sets continued with the 19 & 29 (Canadian).

What was the question again?

Ah! WS52 and the change in frequency range compared to the WS No.9.

The AFV sets were originally limited to 1.875 - 5.0 MHz (WS7, WS9, WS19 Mk.1) which was woefully inadequate and increased to 2.0 - 8.0 MHz that allowed overlap with the Infantry (and other users). The WS52 (and 62) were given a rather wider range so as to be usable as "Rear Link" sets and work to the WS12/R107 and WS53/R107 in Division and Corps.

The RF Amplifier No.2 was developed to boost the output of a standard WS19 to allow that to be used for Rear Link working, while the Canadians developed their own WS19HP that was a very different beast but arrived too late to see much service in Europe.

Best regards,
Chris.
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