C8 data plate

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I am never sure what the answer is! In theory merely on the plate but there have been suggestions that the chassis number was stamped on the chassis rails as well. This may also be subject to local assembly plant practices.

[Mike Kelly]

thanks David

For the tailight bracket info. I have saved it .

The floor plates you have with different patterns, dont know . I have the normal cross and dot style right through the cab .

for the repro 1A2 body , I tried to find a floor pattern close to the original, I ended up using what was available . Rolling new checker plate is out of my league .

Mike

[Pete Ashby]

Originally posted by cletrac
I just noticed that one of the floor panels on my C8 has a different pattern on it. Has anyone else come across this?

Yep seen a few like that, the dot and dash seems to predominate on the early models.

Pete

[cletrac (RIP)]

Colin, you asked about serial numbers on the frame. I sandblasted every square inch of the chassis and there weren't any markings at all.

[david moore]

David (Cletrac!)

My Cab 12 F8 has mixed tread plate in the cab - mostly dot and dash but the drivers side front piece is dash only . Also the little access plate to the master cylinder is dash only. I'm sure this is all original. So Ford and Chev both mixed and matched I guess.

[Mike Kelly]

Maybe those floor plates are trying to say something ....

In morse code ! dash dot dot = D dot dash = A dash = T dot = E

The DATE ? maybe .... who knows .

Mike

I think I had better go and do something else .

[cletrac (RIP)]

Here's the data plates off that 12 cab C8 with 1B1 body in Alberta. This is the truck with the top bows. The floor of the box doesn't have any holes drilled in it so maybe it's one of the GS models that have been mentioned. A personnel or wireless truck would have had seats bolted to the floor.

[david moore]

Heres my Beath body tag - I guess mine is 763 bodies before the one in Alberta! Do you know the date of delivery of that Alberta truck David? If I know that I might be able to figure out if my Ford's date of 7/11/41 means 7th Nov or 11th July! See next posting for my cab data plate

[david moore]

..........and here's my data plate

[cletrac (RIP)]

David Moore, maybe David Hayward will be able to approximate the date for us using the engine serial number.

[david moore]

Yes, David, it's CD 98

The confusion around the date is that, to all Brits, 11/7 means 11th July (dd/mm) but to all Americans and many Canadians 11/7 means 7th Nov (mm/dd).

However, from the engine date and the body number, I'm going to assume 11th July!

I have never found any numbers stamped anywhere on the frame, by the way.

[cletrac (RIP)]

David Hayward, could you give an approximate month of construction for the Alberta truck? It'd be interesting to see how long it took to make the intervening 763 C8s.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

to all Brits, 11/7 means 11th July

There were and still are newspapers that used the US-style MONTH-DAY-YEAR format and during the war both would have been used. So the man in the street saw differing date formats on his newspapers for a start.

However today all three formats are now used:

DAY-MONTH-YEAR
MONTH-DAY-YEAR
YEAR-MONTH-DAY

I have to say that GM of Canada started being different, possibly deliberately or because they thought it was more correct, with the 1927 Chevrolet series A.A. whereas in the States it was AA. They then used full stops or periods as the Americans say until the war at least. This also applied to the Maple Leaf heavy Chevrolets based on Canadian GMC chassis. There was of course no US equivalents.

Going back to date codes it seems that when GM of Canada's subsidiary McKinnon Industries started producing their own castings in 1935 they continued with the same system as in the Flint foundry, namely A to L for January to December including I, plus 1 to 31 for the day and then 0 to 9 for the Calendar Year. However it would appear that during the war GM of Canada used the MONTH-DATE-YEAR format as did Canadian newspapers

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

David, these are the 1942 Models known to me:

2842001130 ENGINE # MR3,765,943
2842001192 ENGINE # WR3,765,985
2842001330 ENGINE # WR3,766,091
2842001378
2842001395
2842001422
2842001427
2842001497

Then it is believed that Number 13 Cab production commenced at 284XX01524. This might suggest that C8 production ran to 2842001523 [unless anyone has seen a #13 C8?], and then when did they start? Possibly shortly after 001053. Evidence: known 1942 C15A production anteceding C8, then C30 and then C60S, with 2844201052 being the last known C60S before the C8 batch.

Production ended according to DND papers I have seen in the past in "Late 1941". I have been looking at various data and concluded that the C8s were all built in one batch. However I may well be wrong. Here are three data plates:


GENERAL MOTORS OF CANADA
MADE IN GM CANADA
OSHAWA WALKERVILLE REGINA
MODEL 84-20
SERIAL 2842001130
ENGINE 3765943 BODY SERIAL 155
TRIM MR PAINT F.C.98


GENERAL MOTORS OF CANADA
MADE IN GM CANADA
OSHAWA WALKERVILLE REGINA
MODEL 84-20
SERIAL 2842001330
ENGINE 3766091 BODY SERIAL 300
TRIM WR PAINT F.C.98


GENERAL MOTORS OF CANADA
MADE IN GM CANADA
OSHAWA WALKERVILLE REGINA
MODEL 84-20
SERIAL 2842001192
ENGINE 3765985 BODY SERIAL 435
TRIM WR PAINT F.C.98

Note the body serials do not conform with chassis numbers suggesting that there was a large number of chassis-cabs all lined up and they were then allocated bodies in no order as received. However we can see that there may have been 450 or so chassis.

As to dates, late 1941 might be correct as regards orders to terminate production of chassis. I have been trying to make sense out of the engine numbers and correlating them with other known CMPs where assembly dates are known. My best guesstimate is December 1941 at this juncture, though it could have been early in 1942, but 1942 Models. I think GM of Canada had secided to change the Model Year system for 1942 as it was causing confusion, with MY numbers being allocated to indicate when contracts had been placed. That is why we have 1940 Models being built into 1941 Calendar Year for the Canadian DND at the same time that 1941 Models were being assembled for the British Ministry of Supply. I have the 1940-41 Ford of Canada engine number runs per month and assume that something simialr occurred with them but for 1942 MY production they would have resolved the anachronistic system.

The easiest way to check GM of C production dates before assembly dates were added around 1943, is if the original engine is there, or if the replacement is approximately the same number as the engine installed. On the block is a casting date code, and we can then determine when McKinnons cast the block in St Catherines, Ontario. We must then add say two weeks for Windsor Transmission Plant to build the engine, and then add more time for the engine to reach Oshawa. We know monthly engine production at Windsor so we could establish roughly when an engine was assembled and then add on say up to four weeks for the engine to be installed in a chassis. After that you must add time for the chassis to be railed or roaded to the body-builders of course unless C8A HUPs where Oshawa built the bodies.

I would suggest that Ford of Canada in Windsor had a similar timescale and used casting date codes except that the foundry was more-or-less on site in East Windsor/Ford City as the assembly plant so you could trim some dayes off the foundry-assembly time. However as mentioned previously we know the 1940-41 Ford series and the "2G-" Mercury engines as used in the CMPs continued on until sometime in November 1941, some weeks after other 1941 engines had finished. I would then imagine that 1942 Model Year production commenced December 1941. This would seem to fit in with what Oshawa were doing.

[Brian Gough]

David,

Here's one more 1940 model for your C8 data base:

MODEL 84-20

SERIAL 0842002756
ENGINE 2807197
BODY SERIAL
TRIM TRA
PAINT F.C. 98



Brian

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I am grateful Brian...added above in red in the original posting.

[cletrac (RIP)]

Here's one to ponder. Most sources claim the 8 cwts didn't have running boards but that Alberta cab 12 does and they're original. It's a 1942 model so there's likely a change in the later trucks. Does anybody have an idea when this change might have come in? I've only seen a couple of pix of cab 12 versions that look like they might have the running boards. This picture shows how the running boards are attached to the gas tank mounts. The truck has a support for the running board built into the rear cab mounting bracket that sticks out from the frame.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Just a suggestion but it could be a 1942 Model introduction and imn th case of the very short Oshawa production window before the type was cancelled, only applied to very late C8 # 12 cabs? Was there a similar provision for the C8A # 12 Cabs?

[david moore]

Mike Calnan's C8 at S&P has running boards - right Mike?. My understanding is that they were ordered removed ( because they tended to "ground" being so low?) but that not all were removed as ordered.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Just a suggestion but it could be a 1942 Model introduction and imn th case of the very short Oshawa production window before the type was cancelled, only applied to very late C8 # 12 cabs? Was there a similar provision for the C8A # 12 Cabs?

Dave.
Not sure that CBA's came in 12 Cabs...
Is this a brain blurp or have you pictures of C8A's with 12 Cabs..

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Bit of both...late April Fool, mental abherration and cross-wiring with the F8A # 12 Cab! Sorry about that...too many balls juggling in the air to remember every detail. Of course the C8A was prototyped with a #13 Cab and it was only the F8A that had a #12 Cab. The later order for India must have had # 13 Cabs.

Compare these photos.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Does this prove the point about the cabs and boards? I have often thought that Ford "had a go" at the concept of a 8-cwt 4 x 4 but for some reason not stated in writing that I found yet, GM of Canada took up the cudgel excepting the Indian order. I am guessing that:
1. Ford of India wanted chassis-cabs only for local bodies
2. Ford did not want the hassle of building complete HUPs ir may not have had the body-building facilities, and thus the capacity
3. The DND favoured GM of Canada, just as they did with the C60X over the F60H V-12 and proposed "F-60X".

[cletrac (RIP)]

I looked in my C8-01 parts list and on page 112 it has the only mention of running boards.

Running Boards
Support, floor plate-left
Support, floor plate-right

These are the stamped cab supports that have the extra piece sticking out to bolt the back of the board to. I couldn't find any part number for the actual running boards or the floor plate support that was used without the running boards.
I'm of the opinion that it must have been the very last of the cab 12s that came with running boards too. Is Mike Calnan's C8 a late model cab 12? Removing the boards wouldn't make much difference to ground clearance as the cast fender mounting bracket and the gas tank mounting bracket would have to remain as is and they're lower than the actual boards. If you removed the boards you'd have to modify the floor support bracket too as it would stick out below the cab.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Just noticed that the photos are dated 1941!

[cletrac (RIP)]

Seeing as how this has turned into a general 8 cwt thread, here's an interesting tidbit. I went on a tour in Alberta and took data plate pictures off three different Cab 12 F8s with 1B1 bodies in various locations. All three were made on 11/11/41. The numbers are:
serial 21596; motor 2G-49103-F; body 256
serial 21629; motor 2G-48956-F; body 19
serial 21634; motor 2G-51641-F; body 12
The body serials are Beath with a 411AC prefix. The first two were wireless bodies and the third was a GS body(no bolt holes in the floor or fenders) like the previously mentioned Alberta truck.
That shows that when they were being built the motors and bodies weren't in any order on the production line.
The second one was the only one with running boards and the first one still has the top bows.

[david moore]

From your series of F8 data plates, David and including mine, can we assume that at least 2000 Cab 12 F8's were made between July and Nov 1941, all apparently to CD 98 and possibly all given either a 7/11 or an 11/11 date of manufacture. Bit of a stretch with only a few data plates, I know, but so unlikely that three surviving trucks with fairly widely spaced serials would all have the same d-o-m unless a sizeable batch were all given the same nominal d-o-m

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

1. I have to admit that I made an humungous error, sorry!
Serial # 21435 motor # 2G-45176 "Dated" 11/7/41 was in fact:
Serial # 21435, engine assembled October 1941, and so the chassis and cab unit was assembled on November 7th 1941 officially, although that date may be strictly inaccurate - see below. I misread the Ford of Canada date for which I apologise!

2. Serial # 21596; motor 2G-49103-F; body 256
Serial 21629; motor # 2G-48956-F; body 19
Serial 21634; motor # 2G-51641-F; body 12
all have motors assembled in November 1941, and start # was November 1st with motor # 2G-48148. October 1st 1941 start was # 2G-45414. It seems that Windsor produced at its maximum something like 3,000 Mercury V-8s of all versions per month. However November 1941 was the last year for 1941 Model Mercury engines whereas other V-8s had finished by the end of October. Note that Ford of Canada used the MONTH-DAY-YEAR format, and the date of assembly must therefore be November 11th 1941. However I do not buy that date as being accurate. I just cannot see that the motor numbers and the "assembly" dates tie in. I suggest that this was a notional release date of the chassis/cabs. All latter three trucks could well have been assembled on the same day with the minimum production of 100 per day we know that was effected in late 1940, with more being possible with civilian orders curtailed. I cannot reconcile the motor numbers with the start number, and conclude at this juncture that the dates were official ones for accounting purposes but may well have been assembled some days afterwards. I am open to others' thoughts! I know that we have discussed these date at length in the C8AX thread, and have to say that the Oshawa may have done exactly the same thing.

3. I cannot see how there could be 2,000 F8s under that contract, though the serial number evidence and that of the similar contract for C8s suggests to me that 500 is more reasonable. However that's only my opinion at this second!

[cletrac (RIP)]

To the other two Davids, I think there's a little confusion here. On the truck serial numbers there's a 200 spread, not 2000. That makes quite a difference. From the 7th to 11th there's five working days. That's 40 units per day. Those Nov 11th trucks have a 38 unit spread so what's the problem? It's definitely a rare coincidence to come across the three that were built on the same day especially when you consider that they're the only F8s I've come across. When you think about it, though, they would have all been demobed out of the same base (Edmonton or Wainwright?) and when they received maybe 20 or so units at a time from the factory the serial numbers were likely close together and could have been all in one day's production.
This image was painted on the hood of 21634. It's a terrible pic that I had to doctor so it'd be legible because of a dark shadow across it. It's a fairy holding what looks like a rod with something wrapped around it. It looks like it was military. I'll try to get a better picture.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

On the truck serial numbers there's a 200 spread

David # 3, that's my very point thanks! I think that the confusion arose because David # 1 or # 2 here, i.e. me, looked up the official Ford of Canada 1940 and 1941 Motor Numbers listings and because I have a problem reading long numbers (a form of dyscalcula) I looked up the serial number for the relevant month and not the engine number for the motor. I think this caused a misunderstanding.

Cor, this confusion..."motor" as Ford and GM say, but "engine" which is what it is! It is apparent that the production was well within the accepted capacity of the Windsor Plant. It is also coincidence, but not unique, that we have several trucks with the same date. However, I cannot associate the engine numbers with the known production start date for the first unit completed November 1st 1941, and suggest that the date on the plate is a release date and the actual assembly may have been some days later. In other words and enigma! However we have had this with the C8AX production, which is the best-researched CMP to date so far as dates, production and engine numbers are concerned.

Thread Here

It would be very helpful if we could get some more data of F8s, and possibly other 1941 Fords.

On a second thought, in the UK the C8s were obsolete early on, and some were demobbed possibly as early as 1944 or beginnign of 1945 for at least essential-user use. I can imagine that this would result in similar batches being released at the same time.

Best wishes!

[david moore]

My mistake of arithmetic - 200 not 2000 you're right!

Thought it might be interesting just to add the other Cab 12 F8 numbers that are on the Peter Ford list from 1988:

They are
21586 * 2G 49082F 11/11/41 CD98 GS body
21623 2G 49170F 11/11/41 CD 98 ?
21755 2G 48894F 11/12/41 CD98 long box
21758 ? ? ? ?
21825 2G 49525F 11/13/41 CD 384 long box WIRE

* list actually says 25586 but I think that must ba a mistake

All of the above were listed in Canada in 1988.


The sign you show, David, is a winged mercury figure I'm pretty sure - you know, the Greek god figure - nothing to do with Mercury engines! Probably means fast communication -( wot? on a CMP!) No idea what unit that would be - sigs maybe?