Black Watch of Canada, vehicle unit Markings ww2

[Aidan]

Would anyone have photo's of Unit markings of the Canadian Black watch in Universal carriers or CMP's?when they were in Italy and later in France. Thankyou
Aidan

[edstorey]

Photographs of the Black Watch R.H.R. of Canada Carriers in Italy will be very difficult to find as the Regiment did not fight in Italy. As part of the 2nd Canadian Infnatry Division the Regiment fought in NW Europe.

You might want to do a bit more on line research of this very famous and popular regiment on your own before you start asking others for help. I just googled the regiment and there is enough material to satisfy the casual enthusiast. As well, the Library and Archives Canada has a wonderful site, Faces of War, Google that and search for Black Watch.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by edstorey

Photographs of the Black Watch R.H.R. of Canada Carriers in Italy will be very difficult to find as the Regiment did not fight in Italy. As part of the 2nd Canadian Infnatry Division the Regiment fought in NW Europe.

You might want to do a bit more on line research of this very famous and popular regiment on your own before you start asking others for help. I just googled the regiment and there is enough material to satisfy the casual enthusiast. As well, the Library and Archives Canada has a wonderful site, Faces of War, Google that and search for Black Watch.

Ahhh... I see the "buy a book" crowd have grown tired of running people off the CSC site and have settled here. Beware!! Post not until you have exhausted all archival and primary source material.

Good luck Aidan, I hope you find some pics.

[Aidan]

thanks Eddy!

[Aidan]

Thankyou Mr. Parker

Aidan

[Jordan Baker]

Here is the Collections Canada Faces of War site. I find it reasonably easy to search. If you go to the advanced settings you can choose from lists of various regiments also. Best of luck.

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/f...14-2000-e.html


And I just did a quick search for the "Black Watch". 23 pictures come up with only 1 having a Carrier and its a T-16.

[edstorey]

Who said anything about buying a book? All I did is suggest that someone interested in the Black Watch R.H.R. of Canada might want to try doing a little at home research before asking everyone else to do it for him.

But now that you mention it, there are some pretty good books on the Regiment....

[Stewart Loy]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

Ahhh... I see the "buy a book" crowd have grown tired of running people off the CSC site and have settled here.

Bruce,

You scamp - are you going to the OMVA show in Acton? I suspect that there will be Fox parts, books, and many other delights there.

There is so little snow up this way that even Skagfeld might come!


Stewart

[pzrwest]

When I need specific unit markings I call up the unit or unit museum and ask them. Usually the unit has a unit historian and he can usually direct you to the info or put you intouch with the unit museum etc

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally Posted by Stewart Loy

Bruce,

You scamp - are you going to the OMVA show in Acton? I suspect that there will be Fox parts, books, and many other delights there.

There is so little snow up this way that even Skagfeld might come!


Stewart

Stewart and Bruce...both of you are so cruuuuuel!

[Barry Churcher]

I guess I do this wrong. I always like to ask on a forum for answers. Be it military vehicles, tractors or whatever, there is always someone more than willing to share their knowledge with others. They want to share their research. If no one asked any questions, even stupid ones like I do sometimes, ( I said that before Simundson thought it) where would this forum be? The other great thing about someone like Aidan asking a question about something that relates to him, others like myself learn from the answers.
mvg,
Barry

[edstorey]

Barry:

You make a good point, there is a lot of collective knowledge that individuals have unearthed and are willing to share on the net. I know I come across as a villian on a number of the forums pressing people to do their own research and to perhaps spend a few bucks on a book; as I feel anyway that doing your own research is more rewarding. I also understand that for some topics or questions it is easier to ask to see if anyone has already cultivated the sources and for that the forums are very good.

No question is 'stupid', I don't like using demeaning terms on people, I may hint that someone is an idiot, misinformed or worse, but without searching through my previous posts I hope I have not in a fit of passion resorted to name calling.

Not to pick on Aidan, but his original post prompted my terse reply as it lead me to believe that he had not done any research into the Black Watch R.H.R. Regiment of Canada before asking his question as he mentioned the regiment serving in both Italy then France. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think Aidan has access to the same internet search engins everyone else has and as I stated; a quick google will at least find sites that can provide a basic history of this famous Canadian regiment. A read through of one of these sites would have revealed that the Black Watch did not as a regiment serve in Italy, and since I have not looked at every Black Watch site, one of these sites may even have a photo gallery of images with vehicles to answer his question.

I am not sure if Aiden even went to his local library to do a search and since the mere mention of looking in, reading or dare I say purchasing a book seems to send a lot of people into a 'spin cycle', I stayed away from a list of titles that deal with the Black Watch R.H.R. Regiment of Canada.

I think too many people use the forums and a computer as a crutch (I refer to it as the magic box) as it is very easy to sit down, type a question and sit back and wait for someone else to do the research and come up with an answer. Then if a villian like myself pressures a person to do the work themselves, they fall back with a poor me attitude of "I was only asking a question and I thought the idea was for everyone to share their knowledge".

I will share this nugget of information, off the top of my very bald head, I believe the information that Aiden is looking for is in the Bouchery book on the Canadian Soldier in Normandy that was printed by the same people who publish Militaria Magazine.

[Lynn Eades]

There are areas where our interest is not so strong. With an interest in Carriers, I have only a vague interest in unit/regiment history, until it meets with, what is of real interest to me. Young people are taught at school to ask, like Aiden has. Unless he is arogant in his ignorance, I would be trying to "peak" his interest, so that he becomes a student, that in time he will be another Ed Storey, or a Mark Toner. Someone whose knowledge has become a resource beyond doubt. (I have enjoyed the thread on the (I 'd better get this right) "utility pouches"
I have learned a lot from you and others, and I thank you.
Aiden, stick around. You could do worse, than MLU. Ed has given you a direction, which you may enjoy.

[Aidan]

Thanks Guys, Aidan

[edstorey]

Aiden:

Aiden, when you find the information you a looking for let us know how you did. You might also want to check with the vehicle modellers as they are pretty good at finding out vehicle markings.

ED

[Aidan]

Found the insignia's that I wanted for the Black Watch on a vehicle. Green background square with the Div #60 in white I belive that would be on the Right fender and on the left fender would be Royal Blue square with a Gold leaf. Now what would be the size of the Green Square and Royal Blue Square. and would yellow substitute Gold for the golden leaf? also what Shade of a Green would they have used. Thanks Aidan

[Ledsel]

I would really like to know what this forum is for if not to help each other learn and enjoy their HOBBY, That is what this is ,it's a HOBBY, I 've seen this know it all, Mr Smart a*s attitude in military forums before and I didn't think it would show up on here. What is the big deal about someone asking a simple question ? Do you think you are that much more important than someone else? The man asked a question that was in his interest and was hoping for a simple answer. He was obviously on this site and isn't that looking for the answer? I'm glad I've sold my carrier as I won't have to see this happening to what I thought was a very helpfull and informative forum. There is always at least one A HOLE in the bunch. My 2 cents. TY HAKO-OJA Myrnam Alberta Canada.

[cletrac (RIP)]

I joined this forum in 2003. Before that I didn't know what CMP meant. To me, they were just old Canadian army trucks. We all have to start somewhere! Since then I've acquired a vast amount of knowledge on the subject and don't mind sharing it with anyone who asks. A newbie might ask some inane questions but he learns from them and one day might be able to clue some of the experts in on a few points. Now I'm going to go back to looking at some of those Google Life images and maybe figure out a few more tidbits of info to share.

[Ron Pier]

Aidan, I just looked in my copy of the 'The British Soldier' It states " According to regulations, the unit serial numbers were placed on the front and rear either as a painted plate or directly on to the bodywork. The sizes in 'Napoleonic' are 24.5cm W 21.6cm H The letter height is 15.4cm. I think these sizes are adjustable according to space and location.
The standard procedure, judging by various books and original pictures is. The Div patch would go on the left side front and rear. The unit number on the right. As for the green colour. I think a mid green ( leaf green)? is called for and I think some artistic licence is allowed. Ron

[Eric B]

Hello Folks

Having served 14 years with the Black Watch and being interested in Military Vehicles, i can testify that War time photos of any Canadian Black Watch vehicle is hard to find.

Yes it is a white 60 over a green rectangle and a gold maple leaf over a blue rectangle.

The sizes as indicated earlier are correct, although for a jeep they would be slightly smaller.

If you plan on depicting early war, the markings would be on the reverse sides (Than indicated in earlier replies) and the unit marking might be on a pass plate rather than painted on the vehicle itself.

If portaying anything after D-Day then it would be as described in other replies.

If portraying a vehicle within Canada the markings would be completely different.

If anybody finds any photos of Canadian Black Watch vehicles i would be interestd in a copy, which i would send on to the RHC Archives.

The markings used in the 1950's- 1960's are different than those used during war time. They replaced the 60 with a 9.

Thanks

Eric

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Ledsel

I would really like to know what this forum is for if not to help each other learn and enjoy their HOBBY, That is what this is ,it's a HOBBY, I 've seen this know it all, Mr Smart a*s attitude in military forums before and I didn't think it would show up on here. What is the big deal about someone asking a simple question ? Do you think you are that much more important than someone else? The man asked a question that was in his interest and was hoping for a simple answer. He was obviously on this site and isn't that looking for the answer? I'm glad I've sold my carrier as I won't have to see this happening to what I thought was a very helpfull and informative forum. There is always at least one A HOLE in the bunch. My 2 cents. TY HAKO-OJA Myrnam Alberta Canada.

Ledsel,
This was a totally unnecessary post. You cannot complain about one member's comments if you, in turn, start name calling. This forum has managed to stay away from this type of language that is so prevalent on other fora. Ed has his opinion on postings and did not bring it down to a personal attack. I think that you owe MLU an apology and you should edit your post.
Clive

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by Aidan

Would anyone have photo's of Unit markings of the Canadian Black watch in Universal carriers or CMP's?when they were in Italy and later in France. Thankyou
Aidan

Hi Aidan;

Before this thread gets totally out of hand ...

Below are examples of the basic Arm of Service (60) and the Formation (2 Cdn Inf Div) markings as used by the RHC in NWE - 1944-45. The maple leaf could be either yellow or gold in colour.

References:

a. - From: VEHICLE MARKING FIELD UNITS CDN ARMY OVERSEAS - Amended 28 Jan 1944: - under NUMERICAL INDEX FOR VEH MARKINGS - para 3 - Fmn signs are described below: - 2nd Cdn Inf Div - Blue square with gold maple leaf superimposed.

b. - From: CANADIAN MILITARY HEADQUARTERS 1/Signs/2/4 (SD 3b2) to HQ First Cdn Army (SD) - entitled: Veh Markings, dated 29 Mar 44 - under APPENDIX 'A' to W.O. Letter 57/Vehs (A)/648/8(S.W.V.3) dated 28 March 1944 - under STANDARD VEHICLE MARKINGS FOR AN INFANTRY DIVISION: - under Bdes: - under the second HQ Inf Bde entry: - for the first Inf Bn of the Bde - Serial No.: 60 - Colour Background: Green

c. - From: VEHICLE MARKING FIELD UNITS FIRST CDN ARMY, dated 10 June 1944 - on page 10 - 2 CDN INF DIV: - under 5 CDN INF BDE - RHC - SERIAL No.: 60 - BACKGROUND: Green

Hope this helps

Cheers

[Aidan]

Thanks Mark , That was all I was looking for. As for the other post's From other MLU's very helpful thankyou , As for the Ledsels post , Thanks for watching my back! As for Ed's post ?well... i'll go no farther. Aidan

[Ledsel]

SERVICEPUB, If the shoe fits then wear it. Enough said.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Aiden,
This is probably Queen's Own Rifles on D-Day but I don't have the actual caption material or date of the photograph. The QOR also used the Arm of Service (AoS) number '60' but their yellow/gold Maple Leaf was painted on a rectangle of French Grey (bleu d'horizon).
In any event it will show you placement of the markings.

Clive

[Jordan Baker]

Clive, that picture is QOR's. By the time 2nd Div landed a month later the beach had somewhat become less hostile.

Aidan, from my memory, the maple leaf would either be yellow or gold. If early war it would have a C with II superimposed on the maple leaf.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Jordan Baker

... By the time 2nd Div landed a month later the beach had somewhat become less hostile...

Ah, so it's not a driver training issue then?

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Aidan;

To give you an idea of the placement on the rear of the carrier the photo below is of a right side up carrier of the Highland Light Infantry of Canada (England, 19 May 1944), although a unit of the 3 Cdn Inf Div, the photo shows where the Arm of Service and Formation signs go on the carrier rear.

Source: LAC/PA-136854

Cheers

[edstorey]

I think Mr. HAKO-OJA needs to sit down for a minute and reread the rules to this forum before posting anouther one of his messages.

"By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws."

[Ledsel]

Funny how one person can criticise but others can't . Anyway I think it's time to drop it already.