Dutch Vickers Model 1936 - Netherlands East Indies

[T. Metsovitis]

Sorry for the delay in reacting to this thread gents, I've been hanging out in the soft skins forum these past few days. Good thing Aris was on the lookout.

Further to Aris' post, when Winston spoke of the 19th Motorised Division, he was of course referring to a Greek army division. Apart from the equipment Aris mentioned they also had Austin 8HP Series AP cars equipped with Hotchkiss machine guns.

I doubt any L3s were shipped from Egypt. The vehicles used by the 19th were captured in Albania according to the memoirs of the unit's commander, Gen. Honthrokoukis.

Photos of the Dutchmen do indeed exist. Here they are:


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y11/torpy/Vickers1.jpg


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y11/torpy/Vickers2.jpg


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y11/torpy/Vickers3.jpg

They all came from ebay auctions some time ago and apparently portay a captured vehicles dump somewhere in Greece. The carriers have the white hexagon marking which seems to have been the19th Mot. Div's insignia. This leads us to believe that the Dutchmen were part of the same unit although they don't carry the same marking and retain their British census number.

Fyll

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Gentlemen, hats off to your efforts to unearthing unknown information from the depths of history!


Regards,
Hanno
(a.k.a. the giant Dutchman - too large to fit in one )

[Mark Mackenzie]

From another book on Churchill, this time by Martin Gilbert.

Hollis to Churchill, 24 November 1940:

"As a result of Churchill having sent on Lindemann’s criticisms, the Chiefs of Staff agreed to send Greece, in addition to the original list, 24 field guns and ammunition, 20 anti-tank rifles, 10 light tanks 'which are only used for training purposes but should be of value in Greece', 100 Vickers machine guns, 100 American trench mortars and ammunition, 16 heavy and 24 light anti-aircraft guns, and 20 Hurricane fighters. The fighters were already in Malta".

Minute of 25 November 1940:

"Churchill accepted these increases, but added one cautionary note. 'I cannot approve the 20 Hurricanes going to Greece', he minuted to Ismay".

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by T. Metsovitis
Photos of the Dutchmen do indeed exist. Here they are:



They all came from ebay auctions some time ago and apparently portay a captured vehicles dump somewhere in Greece.

Interestingly, this very same photo was (again) auctioned on Ebay, see Brit.Panzer Bren-Carrier u.Vickers„Dutchman“Griechenlan Artikelnummer: 290062240245 :

Originales Foto aus der Zeit des 2. Weltkrieges.
Das Foto zeigt erbeutete britische Panzerfahrzeuge in Griechenland im Frühjahr 1941.
In der Mitte drei Bren-Carrier, eingerahmt links und rechts von leichten Panzern des Typs Vickers „Dutchman“.
Diese kleinen Panzer sind in sofern etwas Besonderes, als dass sie offiziell nur zu Ausbildungszwecken in England selbst verwendet worden sein sollen.
Was machen also gleich 2 davon in Griechenland ?
Das Foto besitzt altersbedingte Gebrauchsspuren siehe der Abbildung.
Grösse : 9,8cm x 6,8cm.
Vorder und Rückseite des Fotos siehe der Abbildung.
Wie bei allen meiner Fotoauktionen Echtheitsgarantie!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

People with an interest in the DAF M39 armoured car will be familiar with this picture of two of these captured by the Germans and knocked out somewhere in Russia.

Only recently it struck me the tank on the left could very well be a Vickers "Dutchman"?!?

What do you think?

Thanks,
Hanno

[Rob Dyba]

From the limited resolution & from where it's cut off it is hard to be 100%, but it's definitely Vickers by the radiator exhausts and the thicker spokes on the rear wheel. I think the rear plate of the turret is visible, and don't know what the bulges are...

Rob

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by robobmc
From the limited resolution & from where it's cut off it is hard to be 100%, but it's definitely Vickers by the radiator exhausts and the thicker spokes on the rear wheel. I think the rear plate of the turret is visible, and don't know what the bulges are...

Rob, just what I thought. Here's a slightly larger view, unmistakenbly Vickers Model 1936. . . The angular turret is the giveaway.
Could this be one of the Vickers "Dutchmans" sent to Greece, and captured there by the Germans?

Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Another pic of a Vickers Dutchman off Ebay. In German use in Greece.

[Richard Fisher]

Great stuff Gents. Last year I bought a Vickers MG that had been supplied to KNIL as one of their trials guns and the KNIL is something I have been trying to find out more about so to find out more regarding Vickers-supplied equipment, and the types of tanks that would have used the Vickers 7.7mm is superb.

Regards

Richard

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Here's a slightly larger view, unmistakenbly Vickers Model 1936. . . The angular turret is the giveaway.
Could this be one of the Vickers "Dutchmans" sent to Greece, and captured there by the Germans?

This picture shows (another?) captured Dutchman, knocked-out somewhere in Russia.

[T. Metsovitis]

Here is another view of that dump in Greece with two Dutchmen visible. It looks like it was an attraction for Germans in the area. The photo is again from ebay.

Fyll

[David Reasoner]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Could this be one of the Vickers "Dutchmans" sent to Greece, and captured there by the Germans?

Gentlemen, I think it far more likely the tank in question was a former Latvian or Lithuanian Vickers. After the Soviet 1940 annexation of the Baltic States, these machines became part of the equipment of the Red Army's 12th Mechanized Corps, where most likely ended up in German hands.

The knocked out DAF armored cars could indicate use by the German 227th Infantry Division, whose reconnaissance battalion took four ex-Dutch DAF M39 armored cars to the Eastern Front in late Autumn 1941. However, I have yet to see any hard evidence they ever had a captured Vickers light tank on strength.

David

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David Reasoner

Gentlemen, I think it far more likely the tank in question was a former Latvian or Lithuanian Vickers. After the Soviet 1940 annexation of the Baltic States, these machines became part of the equipment of the Red Army's 12th Mechanized Corps, where most likely ended up in German hands.

David,

Having dug up more info on the subject, I think the odds are indeed larger this (these?) are captured Latvian or Lithuanian Vickers M1936 tanks.

Thanks!
Hanno



http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/al...Lietuvos_3.PNG

"Lithuanian Vickers M1936 tanks and infantry wait for orders to cross the Lithuanian-Polish frontier on September 19, 1939"

[David Reasoner]

Hanno,

It's interesting that the photo you posted appears to show a mix of both Lithuanian M1934 and M1936 models, looking at the suspension bogies. A breakdown of the rather odd mix of armored vehicles present in the 12th Mechanized Corps in June 1941 can be found here:

http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/f...corps/12mk.htm

A total of 42 Vickers tankettes of all types were listed, including 5 of the 40mm gun-armed version. Apparently only about 13 of the 42 were still serviceable on 22 June 1941.

David

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Another captured Dutchman.

Source: http://www.odkrywca-online.pl/pokaz_watek.php?id=225326

[Bob Cohoon]

This is an excellent series on the Vickers light tanks for sure.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Some more pictures of the Vickers Model 1936 in use with the Netherlands East-Indies Army:

"Cavalry of the Royal Netherlands East Indies Army (KNIL).Vickers Lloyd Light tank, model 1936. Standard model with one machine gun; also called the Light Tank Dutch and Dutchman. Dutch East Indies (1941), Source: KITLV"



"A Vickers Carden Loyd light tank of the Mobile Unit of the KNIL in the field during an exercise. Java. Dutch East Indies (Februari 1941). Source: NIMH"



"Military of the Mobile Unit of the Royal East Indies Army (KNIL) hurry during an exercise to six Vickers Carden Loyd light tanks. Java. Dutch East Indies (December 1941). Source: NIMH"

[eddy8men]

a great little tank.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by eddy8men

a great little tank.

It is - here is another appetizer for you ;-)

The Vickers Light Tank during an inspection in the Netherlands East Indies. Note that is does not have a MG fitted. The Vickers Amphibious Tank is standing behind it. I suspect this picture was taken during trials.

[Jon Bradshaw]

Hello all. I have the reproduction of this Latvian Vickers Model 1937 here in Canada, but I have been asked if the 1936 were ever sent to Canada as part of the build up of the armored corp. I can't find much about where they were sent. I have read that the KNL tanks that were held back after the fall of the Dutch East Indies were used by the British. I also remember reading that some already on ship, on route were possibly diverted to Australia, but were any sent to Canada? I have seen that the Mk6 were sent here but can't verify any other models of tank.