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  #1  
Old 28-05-04, 04:38
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
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Default Springs......

I am currently taking my spring packs off the Cab 11 for cleanup and re-arcing (spl?).....

The spring shop wants to know how much to re-arc.....

....what do I tell him...?? he wants know how much higher the truck should be... the weight.... the color of my hair...sex of my dog .....etc... and when I say 1940 CMP I get a ....Duh!!!!

Needless to say the are now pretty flat....but none broken...

I was thinking of measuring the distance between the truck spring shackles when they are hanging at absolute vertical at erst and give him that dimension to set the spring pack to when at rest uninstalled.

Will that be acceptable???? or do we have specs somewhere else to work from.... I could not find this information in my manuals.

Thanks again for your input and advice.....
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  #2  
Old 03-06-04, 17:32
Mike Kelly's Avatar
Mike Kelly Mike Kelly is online now
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Default Springs

I confess , I am no authority here . But , normally at rest , the shackles are angled slightly towards the rear, e.g. past the vertical , about 15-20 degrees . As the springs change shape e.g. driving with a load and flex, the shackle angle increases .

If your shackles are vertical at rest , usually, this indicates that the springs have been set too high .

Again , this is only my casual observation and is not a definitive reply . It would vary from model to model depending on what type of design it is .

Mike
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  #3  
Old 06-06-04, 01:40
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Default

Hi, this is just an idea but in the CMP specification charts supplied by Geoff Winnington-Ball there is a section on weights and measurements for the various models.

it shows a front & rear axle ground clearance height.

what I suggest is you measure your height, compare it to the specification height and then get the spring maker to adjust to suit.

This is for cab 13 type but they may be (and I am not sure) very little difference.

Hope this helps
Cliff
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  #4  
Old 09-06-04, 05:23
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
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Default Springs...sprang...sprung..

Thanks Cliff and Mike.

First of all I am working on an early (1940) Chev C15 cab 11... and from what I have observed of the frame-power train very little differences with a later (say 1942) Cab 13.

The obvious.... different body mounting points... different front shocks.... added braces on the rear engine frame cross member... but the big stuff is all the same.

Now the darn thing is almost all disassembled... bare frame...still have to remove the front axle.

I measured the spring set up before dis-assembly and it compared favorably with my parts truck... C15 ex-water truck.

My front springs are defenitely flat.... it had a huge..huge snow plow mounted ... it was made from old riveted curved boiler plates. The rear shackle was pushed back about the farthest it could go..... I do know these have to be re-arced. My rear spring shackles had a slight rearward angle but not much. When compared to the water truck frame....which is sitting off the ground on homemade stands... no wheels... the axles is hanging down and the rear shackles are still slightly angled to the rear.

My reason for askinf for specs.... my previouos expereince with springs has been with M 37 Dodge Power wagon.... they were bad for sagging springs.... and the army manual had a spec for the springs at rest.... a measurement from eye to eye in inches.... that is what I have been trying to find to no avail.

Cliff measuring the frame height at this point when the sucker is all apart is meaningless. The spring shop had asked me ti measure the space between the lowest mid part of the spring to the frame.... and tell him how much more it should raised... too late for that now.

Amazingly none of the leaves are broken...... I had too main concerns... one was the re-arcing of the front springs the other was to inspect the condition of the Shackle pins and the bushings inside the eye of the springs..... again to my surprise the pins are hardly scored and at least the rear bushing are still good enough. I may find worst in the front with all the weight of the plow.... in any event if they are going to the spring shop new bushings are going to be installed...... all the pins are being washed .... new zerts grease fitting installed and the grease channels cleaned and blown out. Maybe it second life in a garage gave it more maintenance then usually found elsewhere.

From what you both tell me.... the rear springs are probably not in bad shape... and lets face it....it will never be loaded down again....... all the brackets ..bolts...and tubes for the bolts will be replaced with new hardware..... new bushing.... new center bolt on the spring pack...new U bolts and nuts......should ride reasonably well.......for an old CMP.

I am now building sturdy axle craddle stand with wheels to hold the axles..... them suckers are heavy.... the rear axle is now resting on regular axle stands and far to wobbly to work on safely....... I will build the axle stand high enough for me to sit comfortably on a low stool...... real curious of what I will find inside the axles when I remove the lids...... some oil/grease I hope and maybe some water....???? and so if you wonder...I use an old farm tractor with an hydraulic bucket to do the heavy lifting....see picture taken laft Fall...the frame is now totally bare.

Thanks for your help guys..... it gets lonely at the barn sometimes while pondering which nut to remove next.....

If any one else has any practical experience on the springs or the coming axle nightmare do jump in.....
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  #5  
Old 10-06-04, 02:51
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Bill Mulholland Bill Mulholland is offline
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Default Springs Etc

Bob; I had to rebuild the front springs on my F15A for the same reason... a huge !#$$%^& plow had been fitted. I removed the springs,clamped firmly in a vise, removed the centre bolt, and proceeded to hammer and chip off the rust and crud. The left spring was in reasonably good condition due to a leaky plow control valve. The R/H was in reaonable condition also, except the eye was broken on the main leaf at the front. Long story short... I applied some learned metallurgy and welded the eye back on. The confirmation test was lifting the front end about 4ft with the Diamond T and dropping the truck to the shop floor. the repair held, and that is about the absolute worst bump it will have in it's life with me. As for re- arcing, once the springs had been apart for some time, they found their way back to almost the original arc. After replacing on the truck, and a MK1 eyeball inspection, they looked about right, so I left them alone. It has been 2 years since and there is no noticeable sag.
Cheers, Bill
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  #6  
Old 10-06-04, 05:15
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Keith Webb Keith Webb is offline
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Default Sawmill CMPs

In the 70s when most sawmills in Australia had one or more CMPs, it was quite normal to see broken front springs. The reason? A long jib on the back and a heavy load... add a few beers to the driver and see how high you can bounce it.

Sawmill trucks are generally the worst you can find when looking for a CMP to restore!

Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Mulholland
Bob; I had to rebuild the front springs on my F15A for the same reason... a huge !#$$%^& plow had been fitted. I removed the springs,clamped firmly in a vise, removed the centre bolt, and proceeded to hammer and chip off the rust and crud. The left spring was in reasonably good condition due to a leaky plow control valve. The R/H was in reaonable condition also, except the eye was broken on the main leaf at the front. Long story short... I applied some learned metallurgy and welded the eye back on. The confirmation test was lifting the front end about 4ft with the Diamond T and dropping the truck to the shop floor. the repair held, and that is about the absolute worst bump it will have in it's life with me. As for re- arcing, once the springs had been apart for some time, they found their way back to almost the original arc. After replacing on the truck, and a MK1 eyeball inspection, they looked about right, so I left them alone. It has been 2 years since and there is no noticeable sag.
Cheers, Bill
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  #7  
Old 11-06-04, 17:51
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Mike Kelly Mike Kelly is online now
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Default Springs

Years ago , in the motor trade , is was common to re-set springs by ' hammering ' them. You use a anvil and a heavy hammer . I have not seen it done , but you use the horn of the anvil and hit the spring leaf as it lays on the horn . I've been told you warm the leaves up slightly with a torch . It's a very slow , dirty and messy job .

You can also do it cold with a hydraulic pipe bender . Each leaf is re radiused in the bender . Its slow but effective .

Mike
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  #8  
Old 14-06-04, 05:12
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
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Default Spring follow up....

Bonjour all......and a special "HI" to Uncle Bill......

The worst for wear seems to be the shackle pins and bushings.

I also found some interesting spring specs in the MB-C1 manual ...... been looking for that info and it was right under my nose......

From what I can see the rear springs are probably OK as they are.... will need to replace the brass bushings that are now oval. but all the leaves are there...unbroken..... will replace all the clamp/brackets with new hardware.... the leaves are rusty but not overly pitted and still have some arch to them.

The front springs are plain "flat" and at only 2 inches wide amazing they carried that heavy plow for so long. I hope finding shackle pins will not be a problem.... should be fairly standard.... 4 are useable and 8 are badly worn.

In sandblasting the frame this week end I discovered a small crack in the front frame..... underneath right next to where they had welded a bracket for the snow plow...... lucky to find it with de-greasing fluid...... half inch on the vertical section of the outside...curves underneath for about 2 more inches....... having the frame on stands and upside down greatly helped discovering the flaw. I grinded the crack Vee shaped and will weld from both side....hopefully its future life will not stress that area too much.

About half the frame is done....sitting upside down on stands....gave it a quick phosphoric acid wash and will do the top side later the will paint the whole sucker with POR 15...tie coat ...then a couple of coats of WWII OD....... some of the forward cross members needed replacing and have been blasted and painted seperately to be bolted back in at the end. This will allow me to get behind the typical blind spot of the crossmembers and seal those areas good.......

I will probably shop at Malmberg springs and hope the spring guy can make sense of the spec sheet I will show him.

After lifting and moving these spring packs around the yard ...they are heavy **^^&*...... so I will leave it to them strapping young men at the spring shop to do the bull work for me.

Its coming...slowly...but its coming together....
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  #9  
Old 15-06-04, 04:25
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
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Default Follow up......

Well I got a price quote of ONLY $22 dollars to re-arc and install a new centre bolt.....

No price quote on the brass bushings yet......

The shackle bolts are not going to be easy to find...... the CMP bolts are cut out semicircular for the bolts that hold it in place.... modern ones are cut 3 sides for a particualr shaped bolts who is shaped half 3 side and half circular...... but the old guy is off on Mondays and he will have a personal looksee later this week....

If not I may need to travel to Holland to see what is available NOS .......

It ain't over yet!!!!!
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  #10  
Old 22-06-04, 04:57
Mark Sierant Mark Sierant is offline
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Default Re Setting Springs

Do at home if you have a Press, take the main leaf and mark in chalk 1inch increments from the centre bolt out to about 6 inches from the bolt on both sides. Now place the spring in the press so that it is supported about 4inches from the press head on either side. Now apply preasure to your first mark until you can see the suface tension change on your spring. IE rust will start to sprinkle off, back the preasure off and move to your opposite chalk mark and start again.
Move back and forth on your marks until completed, then offer your main leaf up to your truck shackle points. You should end up about 5 degrees past the centre point in the direction of travel of the swinging shackle.

Adjust as required, never apply preasure to the centrebolt posistion directly as it is the weakest point. Once your main leaf is fine use this as a template for the rest of the spring pack.

This should take a couple of hours per spring.
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  #11  
Old 23-06-04, 03:37
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
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Default Very resourceful...

Hi Mark

Amazing what can be done with a little patience..... my press is only 20 tons but worth a try.... what do you use on the press head....... I was thinking of welding a 1/2 inch rod to the head so the pressure is distributed across the chalk line.....

Will have to try it just out of curiosity and to figutre out how much pressure to see the rust flake off.......

Let see....12 leaves at average 20 spots per leaf..... probably will take a few beers for lubrication...... sounds like a rainy day project.....

Any suggestions for installing your own centre bolts.... I have heard of awful stories about pressing spring packs and they slide off.......sproooiiinnngg is the last thing heard before waking up with a cast....!!!!

Seems the hard thing to come by now is the spring shackle bolts... my spring shop is running all over the states trying tofind the right ones...... in pinch I could have some made but the cost would be something else.

It would seem that out of the 12 pins are still good with minimum wear and they all came from the top part of the shackles where there seems to be less movement.... one altenative is to dismantle the other parts truck to see if I can find reasonably good ones..... or check our parts man in Holland for NOS....
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  #12  
Old 23-06-04, 04:55
Mark Sierant Mark Sierant is offline
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Default Spring Bending

I have about a 3/4 head on a 12 ton press and thats all I use. You will only need to bend to about 8 inches either side of the centre bolt , this is the area that I have found flatens out. I use 25mm pipes clamped to both edges of the press to support the spring and allow it to roll a little. Good luck and bend slowly dont put big preasure on the first pass but work up the curveture.
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  #13  
Old 09-07-04, 03:42
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
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Default News on the spring shackle pins...

According to the "spring man" at Malmberg in Ottawa the type of pins used on the CMP are NO lONGER available.

No charge for the search and they inspected and cleaned my shackles which are OK......

Next option is to ask a machine shop to rebuild the wear area on the pins and remachine to size...... apparently cheaper than fabricating from scratch and quite common on larger trucks.
Shore machine shop in Ottawa was suggested.

Will keep you informed of my findings..... costs ...etc.
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  #14  
Old 21-07-04, 22:29
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
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Default Holland here I come......

Got the word from a neighbouring machine shop...alledgedly chaper than Shore in town....will check that out tomorrow..

The shackle pins are originally machined while soft and hardened after which makes any further machining costly as the process has to be reversed and repeated...... and hollow pns may crack in the process. One shop has suggested using induction hardened stock and machine new pins.....induction hardening is only superficial...will stand up to wear and the core is soft enough to machine the grease passages and the thread for the grease nipple.....

..an as nipples go... they want $45 dollars per pin times 8 which in my mind is to much for the budget???

Am I being unreasonable or too cheap!!!! I may have to check our supplier in Holland to see what he has NOS.... or maybe Brian H........

One time consuming but my time is free (cheap) would be to take apart the other 3 CMP frames and pick out the best pins available.......if I find any.........

Now every spring set that I disassembled had one pin showing almost NO wear and the other two worn to the point that the grease grove was worn flat on one side/half.
But can't remember which one. The spring set up has one single pin at the leading edge of the spring pack and a shackle and two pins at the trailing end...... if memory serves me right the trailing edge has more movement and therefore shows more wear......... does my logic make sense???? would appreciate comments before I go fighting giant West Nile carrying muskeetoes.....it would be nice to remove only the "good" ones ....

...but being a warm day I will start with a cold beer first.....

Phruss-tray-tid.....
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  #15  
Old 22-07-04, 13:30
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Tony Smith Tony Smith is offline
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Default Hmm, shoulda got a Ford!

I'm not certain if the Chev and Ford have the same shackle pins ( as the springs are diffrent , perhaps not), but some of the shackle pins on the Ford CMP's are common with commercial Fords and still available from places like Mac's Antique Auto Parts. Surely there must be a Chev restoration parts seller who stocks for Chev trucks? See Mac's for a sneak peek.
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  #16  
Old 22-07-04, 17:05
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
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Default Thanks Tony

.....I will try to take a close up picture of my pins tonite and post on the Forum..... I have no idea if the Ford CMP and Chev CMP has the same pins...... maybe some down under Ford X-purt can help me out......

I will be checking another machine shop today but my hopes are slim....... Looks like I will have to fight the muskeetoes in the tall grass this weekend and do some surgical removal from my other frames...let's see about two hours a pins if they all come out easy...... times 8....that's a lot of beer....
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