C8AX Tac Sign

[Ausmick]

I started to lightly sand off the three layers of fire engine red from the little C8AX I have for a project trying to find some unit signs or ARN. I came to a light oliver colour and on both the left and right cowl sections this came through:
RN
68022
To my suprise, I was looking for a NZ Kiwi 3rd Division sign, so sanded some more. I found the white Kiwi Bird on the left cowl, but on the right Cowl I sanded up a tac Sign:
102
This is on a black brackground, and the truck was now a dark green. I did a search on it and came up with, to my suprise, NZEF 102VDTC being the 102 mobile VD Treatment centre!. Does anyone know if this is right and what the Aussie RN over 68022 stands for? (and hold back the jokes about my poor C8AX if the signage is right. I have already read history about the 102VDTC attached to the NZ 2nd Div Italy.)

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Ausmick

I started to lightly sand off the three layers of fire engine red from the little C8AX I have for a project trying to find some unit signs ....
To my suprise, I was looking for a NZ Kiwi 3rd Division sign, so sanded some more. I found the white Kiwi Bird on the left cowl, but on the right Cowl I sanded up a tac Sign:
102
This is on a black brackground, and the truck was now a dark green. I did a search on it and came up with, to my suprise, NZEF 102VDTC being the 102 mobile VD Treatment centre!. Does anyone know if this is right? (and hold back the jokes ...... I have already read history about the 102VDTC attached to the NZ 2nd Div Italy.)

Oh, if only it were true!

While the 102 Mobile VD Treatment Centre was indeed a part of the NZ 2nd Div and served in Italy, "102" would not have featured on the Unit identifier sign. The intention of Tac signs is to provide some level of identity security. As an example, the number 102 was allocated to the 125 Light Anti-Aircraft Battery in the NZ 1st Div (which remained in NZ). And as you have pointed out, the white Kiwi was the Formation Sign for the 3rd NZ Div which only served in the Pacific. Whatever VD treatment unit may have been part of the 3rd Div (if at all!), it could not have been 102 VDTC as they were in Italy. If this truck really did belong to 102VDTC, it would have borne the white Silver Fern of NZ 2 Div. (My understanding is that no NZ C8AXs served in Italy.)

In trying to identify the actual unit this truck belonged to, I have run into some confusion. The NZ 3rd Div served in the South Pacific Zone (which included the Solomon Islands where it is accepted that the bulk of Australian C8AXs were sourced from a post-war surplus auction). They were commanded (and supported) by a Corps sized command structure, 2 NZEF-(IP), the 2nd NZ Expeditionary Force In the Pacific which was also in the South Pacific zone, but stationed on New Caledonia. The Formation sign for 3 NZ Div was a white Kiwi on a black background, while the sign for 2NZEF-(IP) was a black Kiwi on a white background. There was no 3 Div unit allocated "102", while in 2 NZEF-IP "102" was allocated to the following units:

Base Camp Reception Hospital and Medical Training Depot
No1 Camp Dental Hospital (on green background)
Base Reception Depot
Bourail camp
2 NZEF-IP Base
Base Provost Section
Detention Barracks
Movement control Sections 1 & 2
Base Pay office and Audit
AEWS (Army Education and Welfare Service)
Public Relation Section
Records Section
Graves registration
Base Postal Unit
Base Kit Store
Base Censor
Base Canteen
Patriotic Fund Board

As you can see, just about every type of Base Wallah was under the umbrella of this unit number, but not a Clap Doctor to be seen. I've mentioned the Dental Hospital as being on a green background, I wonder if that forms one of the layers of green you've noted?

[Ausmick]

Thanks for your directions.

I went and did a little more sanding around the 102 and the background of the TAC is black for sure behind the number. But after reading your post something else has made a bit more sence. If you look at the third picture above, the Kiwi bird was on white bird on a white background, and I wondered how this may have worked, also in the pic you can see black coming through on the neck/leg etc. I sanded this back slowly today and it gave way to more black. So may explain the white background. This would put it into the 2 NZEF-IP.

I know you state the background for the dental unit was dark green, but have you any idea if any of the other units had a black background in the list you supplied?

Was there any other place the NZ military put an ARN or something? Did the RN over 68002 mean anything to you? You will notice more letering above the letter R in teh first picture.....in black.....VI-0.....?

[Tony Smith]

Ooops, sorry I was thinking it, but didn't write it! All the other units listed were 102 on a black background.

The RN number doesn't ring a bell. NZ Army vehicle numbers are in the range NZ23xxx to NZ25xxx. A typical place for the NZ number was on the doors.

I have no idea of the vehicle numbering of the RNZAF (one of the very few pics of a C8AX in the South Pacific shows an Air Force vehicle in front of a RNZAF Corsair), or even the Royal Navy. Could it be something Post-war like Republique Nouvelle Caledonie?

The other smaller lettering doesn't ring a bell either. I thought it could be XH8448 the vehicle model classification, but doesn't look to have the right bits in the right places.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Ausmick

I started to lightly sand off the three layers of fire engine red from the little C8AX I have for a project trying to find some unit signs or ARN.

"Fire engine red"? Would that happen to be the one recently auctioned off at Ebay?

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

[Ken Hughes]

hi Tony.Fred Naishes c8ax Hercules served in Egypt and Italy,(was an ambulance).

[Ausmick]

Tony I thought the RN over 68022 may have been Aussie ARN marking as it was painted onto an Olive colour and I just thought they may have got a 'sweat' out of it once the NZ Division return home?

If the 102 was the NZ Unit sign for maybe one of the units in the list you state above, would these have been under the umbrella of the Army Service Corps? or maybe a Mechanical Transport Company?

Yes Hanno, this is the little red one of Ebay of recent. My mate rang me and wanted the fire fighting equipment it had on it. While the pictures didn't show it the tray was decked out with a good engine and hose reel as well as the water tank itself. We went 50/50 so helped me out as I took the truck, which is now tray less! Hence my search to see what it had on it as a tray in the past. I had my eye on a Ford Blitz F60S 45 Mod before this but the owner didn't know if he should let it go (it had three dogs tied to the axle as their kennel). Have some pictures if anyone interested in it.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Ausmick

Does anyone know if this is right and what the Aussie RN over 68022 stands for?

Hi Mick,

Any chance that the RN68022 number means Royal Navy? It could have been a base vehicle in port in Aus or NZ. The serial looks like the same configuration as used on RN vehicles in the UK at that time.

[Ausmick]

I thought of that Richard but have only found two different types of Army colours. A dark green with the Kiwi markings then above that the Olive Drab Australian Colour. What is a real pain for me I was doing some research last night and came across an Australian Blitz with an ARN on both its Cowls, then, painted on the left hand side bar was the ARN and the letters RN straight after it (maybe RN is registration number?) now for the life of me I cannot find that pic!.

[Tony Smith]

The Aust Army never had C8AX vehicles, so there would be no ARN. The ones that appear in Aust were bought in a post-war surplus auction in the Solomons, so it is unclear how later Aussie green was applied as a top coat, unless it was done at some later time by a "Restorer". WW2 Khaki Green No 3 (the original paint finish) is not too dissimilar to Vietnam era Aussie Olive Drab, just a little darker.

Richard's comment re RN is interesting as Royal Navy is one option I had considered, but gave little thought to as the South Pacific zone saw little action by the RN. It was controlled by the USN under Admiral Halsey, and all port facilities would have beeen US, except those in New Zealand. I don't see what Royal Navy presence would have been in NZ or the South Pacific after April 43 to acquire a C8AX.

However, that said, Mike Kelly said in this post #55 :
"During the later stages of the Pacific war, the RN sent out aircraft carriers and other vessels to Australia , places like Sydney were buzzing with RN units. They were building up for the expected invasion of the Japanese mainland. I do know of a restored C8AX that was marked with RN on the doors. The owner attempted to trace its history through RN archives, but came up with nothing.

Maybe these vehicles were on loan or purchased even .Or maybe the RN officially or unofficially pilfered a few vehicles from the islands as deck cargo.
We will never know the full story. Many vehicles changed ownership with a few bottles of booze as payment."

[Ausmick]

OK Tony, I am starting to learn already that everything to do with history restoration of this little truck is as clear as Mud! I have now looked at some RN Trucks and noticed the markings on them and the RN is after the number. So the one I was looking at the other night must have been RN not Aust at all.
This truck was purchased about 1950 from Sydney and used as a light farm truck until the 70’s and the old guy set it up as a bush fire fighter till it was pensioned off by the brigade. I can’t see a ‘restorer’ getting to it in that period. While it would be good to track the meaning of RN68022 down, and I’ll keep looking, I think I better concentrate on the Kiwi history, which is a bit clearer, sort of.
If the Kiwi numbers were located on the doors, what were the numbers selected by i.e. did they match a chassis number or something. All I know about them is they started with NZ......, and so far does this sound right for the truck, 3rd NZ Division, 2 NZEF-IP, 102 formation with a unit from the list you provided above? Do the Kiwi’s have some sort of ARN/Truck register similar to the records kept by the AWM?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Ausmick

Yes Hanno, this is the little red one of Ebay of recent. My mate rang me and wanted the fire fighting equipment it had on it. While the pictures didn't show it the tray was decked out with a good engine and hose reel as well as the water tank itself. We went 50/50 so helped me out as I took the truck, which is now tray less! Hence my search to see what it had on it as a tray in the past.

Hi Ausmick,

Welcome to this forum and that looks like a great buy!

Mike Kelly, also member of this forum, has made drawings for the C8AX tray which could be of help to you.

Regards,
Hanno

[Rob Beale]

The NZ numbers were set up about 1942. The early ones went on pre war vehicles and impressed vehicles taken from civilians. Once the orders for new vehicles started arriving, the tally of numbers leapt so that the earliest C8AX numbers are around 22,000 and up. One source says the C8AX were assembled in batches of 200 each month, and all have a date of the 5th!
We believe there were 1200 of them, sent from Canada in 1943 as cab and chassis in CKD form (completely knocked down) and assembled in the GM plant in Petone, near Wellington: hence the XH on the chassis number, 8448 is the model number and the next 3 digits are the chassis serial.

I have a copy of the NZ numbers in existence at the end of the war, so the early stuff has gone, and there are many gaps for vehicles written off or sold. There is no correlation to engine or chassis numbers, and the whole numbering system is quite random with sequential numbers jumping between vehicle types.

Your vehicle won't be on the list as it will have been sold off and not returned to NZ. As well as the doors, the number was also painted on the rear of the body, sometimes on or below the tailgate, or one one side of the back panel.
(On post war vehicles it might be on the glove box, or below the windscreen).

As Tony said, it seems Aussie got a lot of our war service vehicles, while we have the ones that stayed at home!
It is likely that some have served in K Force in post war Japan, and K Force in Korea. I guess the forces in the Malayan Emergency may have had a few too.

I've got the 'set' of C8AX: GS, Ambulance and Radio shack. The first two have original decks and I have found original canopies in NZ to copy.
PM me for photos if you want.

cheers
Rob

[Ausmick]

Thanks Rob,
I sent you a message. Here is a picture of its plate if its of any use to finding more out.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

Richard's comment re RN is interesting as Royal Navy is one option I had considered, but gave little thought to as the South Pacific zone saw little action by the RN. It was controlled by the USN under Admiral Halsey, and all port facilities would have beeen US, except those in New Zealand. I don't see what Royal Navy presence would have been in NZ or the South Pacific after April 43 to acquire a C8AX.

There was considerable presence of Royal Navy aircraft in Australia and Pacific regions, both on land and carriers. Around Sydney and East Coast, MONAB's were sited, Mobile Navy Operating Bases, which would have required vehicles. As these may have been in short supply, there is no reason why a one could not have been picked up in NZ by a visiting carrier.

Check out these sites, makes fascinating reading;
www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Squadrons/MONAB.html

http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/navy/rnfaa.htm

[Ausmick]

Richard, that was good reading and the possibilities are now becoming endless. I have sent some information off to the RN history section dealing with MONAB in Australia and hope some light will come from this. Some of these bases were in Australia for years after the war and could have even picked this truck up then.

I found the picture I was trying to find that had a number with RN on it and it was on a thread from here:

http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/sh...1&postcount=36

[hrpearce]

Hi Ausmick,
Thats my blitz and everything makes sence except that "RN" number.
When I went to the War Memorial in Canberra and looked up the ARNs in the volumes of the AWM126 the ARN becide the bonet matched the engine and chassis numbers on the truck.
The RN number however belongs to a F15A that went to New Guinea (?spelling). As Euan pointed out the bumper is drilled for a Chev and has no spare holes so how this number ended up on my truck is a mystery.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Ausmick

I think I better concentrate on the Kiwi history, which is a bit clearer, sort of.
If the Kiwi numbers were located on the doors, what were the numbers selected by i.e. did they match a chassis number or something. All I know about them is they started with NZ...... Do the Kiwi’s have some sort of ARN/Truck register similar to the records kept by the AWM?

As Rob has said, there is no complete record of NZ vehicle registrations. We have to do it the hard way and record the survivors! As the production of C8AX vehicles was quite low, we have started a list to collect as much info as possible in one place. We have already "captured" your vehicle from the E-bay listing, but if you do find any NZ number let us all know and it will be added to the list.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by hrpearce

The RN number however belongs to a F15A that went to New Guinea (?spelling). As Euan pointed out the bumper is drilled for a Chev and has no spare holes so how this number ended up on my truck is a mystery.

Robert,

The fact that your "RN number" has the letters after the number, points to a British Royal Navy serial number. ( The RAF prefixed letters to numbers, and RN suffixed them). The number being same as a F15A in New Guinea is probably a coincidence. My feeling is that Mick's RN number, if it proves to be Royal Navy, was mistakenly painted with the letters first. What is needed is some archive photos of the MONAB airfields showing vehicles and any markings on them.

All fascinating and leads to all sorts of other things when you start searching.

[Richard Farrant]

...........just found some more links to MONAB's in Australia, with some photos showing vehicles, a quite a few British ones, marked with RN serials, inc. Bedford QL tankers and GS cargo types, Fordson WOT6 GS cargo, Austin K6 radar scanner, Fordson WOT2 GS. If you go to the following link, which shows a selection of photos, click on "Nowra image 17", this shows a row of Fordson WOT6 GS trucks and a jeep all with RN serials.
http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive....S/M1_Album.htm

It is quite possible that vehicles needed to be supplemented for a number of reasons and were obtained by "local" resources.

[Ausmick]

There are a few Royal Navy vehicles with the RN as a prefix before the numbers.

So far I look like having a truck that was shipped from Canada to New Zealand in a crate. Built there, then sent off to the Solomon Islands with the 2NZEF-IP and more then likely used in a Headquarters unit of some sort (102). Then, somehow along the line, end up being painted a different shade of green with RN68022 painted upon it. Now looks like it had service in the Royal Navy before or on arrival in Australia.

All I wanted was a nice easy truck with a tray!.......but if I am about to unload a fair bit of money on the old girl in the next few years, I’d rather get its history right (or as close as I can). Thanks for all the help so far. Looks like I could spend longer doing the research then the restoration!!!!!

[Ausmick]

Richard,

Something that you said made me have another look at the cowls where the lettering and numbers were. I don't think, with the size of the white numbering/letters that were on their, that the RN number could have been written 68022RN, as on the smaller C8AX cowl it doesn't look like the room was available. Maybe the next best thing was the RN under the number, but more practical was what has happened with the RN above it?

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Ausmick

Maybe the next best thing was the RN under the number, but more practical was what has happened with the RN above it?

Mick,

That would make sense. Looking at the other vehicles brought over from UK on the website photos, they all have 5 figure numbers, so it does fit in. Just how it got there is the mystery.

[Mike Kelly]

The other C8AX with the RN marking is owned by VMVC member Len Schutt

Bart V. mentioned the RN using C8Ax's in Sydney in his article in an early Wheels & Tracks artricle

Mike K

PS I have a C8AX body here ..cut into 4 sections ..only good for a pattern..free to anyone ..

[Ken Hughes]

Fred tells me that NZ sold about 9 C8AXs to australia after the war.
Also that the Kiwis were at a base in Aus for a while and left all their vehicles behind?
A fair bit of pilfering went on during the war by all our lot and it was nothing to pinch
a vehicle and redo the numbers etc overnight!( Canadian jeep)
Look at the Kiwi converted sliding roof hatch Keith found on a F or C 60L some years ago
I have seen the NZ numbering system ranging from nz19..... nz22....nz23....nz24......etc.
there was some talk a while back that those numbers 19 thru to 24 or so pertained to areas
of registration like Wellington,Auckland, Christchurch and Dunedin etc,but we still dont really know.Perhaps Geoff Plowman would have some insight into this?.

[Ausmick]

Ken,

I see in your post you talk about the NZ numbering system may have been based on areas of registration linked to different towns. Tony in his post above #18, supplied a link for a list of C8AX trucks. My C8AX is on here as number 518.

I noticed some of the trucks built had two different formats for their date of being built. The early dates are a format as such 5 - 3 - 43 and about May started like 5 May 43.

Out of all the May built trucks, my truck is the only one on this list built 5 - 5 - 43 where as all the rest in May are 5-May-43. My truck and the numbered one 622, are the only two above a number of 339 that have dates set out like this.

My question is, do you know if these trucks were assembled at a different plant and if so, in what town? IS that why there is two different date formats?

[Ausmick]

Received this from the AWM today -

The C8AX, known in New Zealand as a 'Puddle Jumper' was the GS version of the Cab 13 C8A operated by Canada and the United Kingdom. The type was not operated by the Australian Army. The registration is a Royal Navy registration, applied to the vehicle following transfer to them from the New Zealand Army in the period of the build up of UK forces in Australia and NZ in preparation for the invasion of Japan in 1945. The UK acquired a number of vehicles from both Australia and New Zealand to supplement those they were accumulating in Australia by importation from the UK. When the invasion of Japan was called off due to the A-bomb and the end of hostilities, the vehicles were disposed of to the local market.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Ausmick

Ken,

I see in your post you talk about the NZ numbering system may have been based on areas of registration linked to different towns. Tony in his post above #18, supplied a link for a list of C8AX trucks. My C8AX is on here as number 518.

I noticed some of the trucks built had two different formats for their date of being built. The early dates are a format as such 5 - 3 - 43 and about May started like 5 May 43.

Out of all the May built trucks, my truck is the only one on this list built 5 - 5 - 43 where as all the rest in May are 5-May-43. My truck and the numbered one 622, are the only two above a number of 339 that have dates set out like this.

My question is, do you know if these trucks were assembled at a different plant and if so, in what town? IS that why there is two different date formats?

No, that's a typo that has crept into constantly reproducing and updating the list. Go back through the earlier posts and you'll see that many of the other May vehicles have pics of their plates stamped as 5-5-43, while some are 5 May 43.

GM NZ was the only plant assembling XH8448 C8AX trucks, this plant was in the Lower Hutt suburb of Petone. Once assembled by GM NZ, they were handed over and distributed to the various military districts. Ken's suggestion is that each Military District was responsible for the initial registration of the vehicles, and therefore the allocation of the NZ number. There were 3 MDs, Northern, Central, and Southern.

[Ausmick]

Rob,

Here’s a picture of the pintle hook and frame. The tip of the hook is a little past the end of the chassis but this would indicate a GS tray? I have seen a picture of an C8AX ambulance now and the pintle hook was further out from the chassis as indicated.

[Mike Kelly]

your very lucky the pintle frame is still there.... it is unique to the C8AX

the pintle itself is unique also .



Mike