Rams outside 1st Armoured Carrier Regiment

[Bill Alexander]

I am not sure if this has been discussed before, but in the history of the 6 AT Regt RCA, there is mention made of the towed 17 pdrs being drawn by ram tanks. The 74th and 103rd Bty were equiped exclusively with rams as prime movers and fought the campaign in northwest Europe with this vehicle. Mention is made on several occaisions of the batteries leaving their guns, and the rams deploying as troop carrying vehicles, or as the history calls them, "kangaroos". This appears to have taken place starting in August of 1944 through the end of hostilities. This provided up to 24 rams to act as kangaroos over the period.

[John McGillivray]

Towards the end of the war in 1945, the danger from German tanks was so reduced, that the Canadians were able to park their towed 17 pounder guns, and use the crews and gun tractors for other duties. The gun crews found themselves being used as Infantry along quite parts of the front, or as guards for POWs, or as labour parties for maintaining roads. The Ram gun tractors from 6th A/t Regt. were often uses in the APC role to carry Infantry, while the Crusader II gun tractors from the 5th A/T Regt. were used to haul Ammo for the Field Artillery Regiments.

[Bill Alexander]

Hi John, The history suggests that the practice started in the Hochwald, which of course was well before the end of the war. They were used to move the Linc and Well to an objective and then supported the assault by bringing supplies and evacuating wounded.
The 6 AT, as 2nd Corps troops may have been used as needed? Or, was there an evolution in thinking and the ram became more important as an asset than the anti-tank gun? Obviously the tank threat was diminishing in March and April, but there were still lots of employment for the 17 pdrs.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Alexander
Mention is made on several occaisions of the batteries leaving their guns, and the rams deploying as troop carrying vehicles, or as the history calls them, "kangaroos".

Reportedly, Ram Kangaroos were often fitted with a British type towing hook (on a vertical bar over the rear hull engine doors), so they could alternatively be used as a gun tower. Not surprisingly, this would work the other way round too as there really was not a lot of difference between a Ram Kangaroo and a Ram Gun Tower. Nice to read it actually happened - great find, Bill!

H.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Bill;

Armoured Gun Tower (RAM II):

Source: Canada's Fighting Vehicles Europe 1943-45, Vol. 1; by W.A. Gregg

Cheers

[Gunner]

There a number of references in the "Gunners of Canada, Vol II" of 6 ATk's tractors being used to haul infantry. I'll try to post some quotes.

Cheers, Mike

[Bill Miller]

Does anyone (oh Mark...) have any information about a troop of kangaroos in the GG Foot Guards late in the war perhaps April/May? last week I received a series of photos of Ram Kangaroos in the GGFG (marked with a 51) on the rear hull. Some the crew members are clearly GGFG troopers (the cap badges are clear).

This interests me also because I have a long list of units my Dad gave me that he was posted to between 1943 and 1946. GGFG is clearly on the list but it is not in his service record (but then there are some serious errors in his file anyway)

Any info would be appreciated.

Bill

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
Ram Kangaroos in the GGFG (marked with a 51) on the rear hull

Here's you pic Bill; others to follow later after I get to resize your scans on my home computer.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
Does anyone (oh Mark...) have any information about a troop of kangaroos in the GG Foot Guards late in the war perhaps April/May? last week I received a series of photos of Ram Kangaroos in the GGFG (marked with a 51) on the rear hull. Some the crew members are clearly GGFG troopers (the cap badges are clear).
Bill

Bill,

This is interesting. The GGFG is my old Regiment. Their photo collection is very limited and I did not see any Kangaroos when last I looked. There are still a couple of WWII Vets around and I will pigeon-hole a couple of them at the next Association meeting.

Clive

[Mark W. Tonner]

Bill, Hanno & Clive;

Just a quick note regarding this subject. While going through various messages/minutes/letters, etc... between First Cdn Army/21st AG, and everybody and his brother, there are references to conversion of RAM I or IIs to Armoured Ammunition Carriers, for the (at that time in NWE) Canadian armoured reconnaissance and armoured regiments,C.A.C., along with 1st CACR, on a scale of 7 per unit (2 per sqn (6), 1 spare = 7), for a total of 56 conversions. Priority of which was 4th Cdn Armd Div (SAR; GGFG; CGG; BCR) and 2nd Cdn Armd Bde (1H; FGH; SFR) and 1st CACR. These conversions were to consist of:

i) removal of the turret
ii) install bullet proof turret hull cover
iii) cut side openings and fit bullet proof doors
iv) relocate wireless set in co-drivers pannier
v) install ammunition racks to carry 75mm, 17pdr and .30 Browning ammunition

In another, it states that the original 56 conversions be increased to 84, but the same scale of issue of 7 per unit (56) and the remaining 28 being held in reserve. And yet, at the end of Dec 1944, the eqpt state says there was only 1x RAM ammunition carrier held, out of an estab. of, I think 49 (I don't have my ref to hand).

I have read that these amn carriers were in fact with armd regts in 1945, but I don't have the exact ref to hand at the moment, anyways, thats my 2¢ worth.

Cheers

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
Does anyone (oh Mark...) have any information about a troop of kangaroos in the GG Foot Guards late in the war perhaps April/May?

Bill's picture no.2:

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
Some the crew members are clearly GGFG troopers (the cap badges are clear).

Bill's pic no.3. Note the degrees around the turret ring....ex-Command/O.P. tank?!?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
references to conversion of RAM I or IIs to Armoured Ammunition Carriers

Mark, these were known as the Ram Wallaby. I don't think conversion item iii) - "cut side openings and fit bullet proof doors" - was carried out on Rams without side doors.

If you look closely at Bill´s picture, you´ll notice these Kangaroos have ammunition boxes piled on top (after bombing up?), so they might actually be Wallabies.

And thats my €0,02 worth

H.

[Bill Miller]

Hanno, Mark,

Thanks for posting the pics for me (seems my Mac is having all sorts of problems accessing PC servers these days )

Re: Wallabies. This is the common carrier my dad drove. Hauling mostly supplies and ammunition. He told me that they came from England with "lids", mentioned the floor hatch was useful for dropping things out the bottom as the tank rolled along, never mentioned hull doors? Again, I need to give him a call.

Are there any pictures of "wallabies" showing the hull covering?

BTW, Dad was in a carrier full of ammunition when it was hit and blew up, ejecting him but severely wounding him.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Mark, these were known as the Ram Wallaby. I don't think conversion item iii) - "cut side openings and fit bullet proof doors" - was carried out on Rams without side doors.

If you look closely at Bill´s picture, you´ll notice these Kangaroos have ammunition boxes piled on top (after bombing up?), so they might actually be Wallabies.

Thanks Hanno....I forgot the word Wallaby(ies) in my earlier post, to many barn yard animals already running through my head these days - PRIEST KANGAROOS - RAMs - RAM KANGAROOS - BADGERS....

Cheers

[servicepub (RIP)]

Some Ram tank data.
From a Cdn Army memorandum dated 17 Jan 45. 40 x Ram I and 1527 x Ram II had been received in the UK. These were distributed as 803 transferred to the British (with 40 more on request), 366 to Canadian units in 21 Army Group, 3 salvaged and 36 earmarked for conversion to “Wasp” (Badger). Of the 359 left 49 were ARVs (mostly RamI), Cdn Army considered 250 sufficient for training purposes at CRU (Cdn Reinforcement Unit) and were prepared to transfer another 60 or so to the Brits.
Another document shows that by this time all spares had been passed over to the British with the exception of spares held in Canada. The reason was that Canada would draw from Brits all spares for Rams and Shermans (there were many common items which the Brits did not separate by tank model).
This second document claims that the status of the 366 Cdn Rams were; 58 17-pdr towers, 182 Armoured Personnel Carriers (Kangaroos), 90 Ammunition Carriers and the 36 flame-throwers
(this doesn’t jive with the above as the 36 Badgers are double-counted).
An undated census of Ram Tanks lists Rams between CT39791 (the earliest number listed) and CT40931 to be either Cruisers or 17-pdr Towers. From CT-159402 these are listed as 75mm
(restricted to gunnery training at CRU), Cruisers (shown as ‘stock’ or as being on charge to Universal Welding, Welding & Eng. Coy., Millars Machinery, J. Olding, etc..) or Towers (all with 21 Army Group. The first Wallaby (ammunition carrier) is shown as CT-159507. It and subsequent Wallabies are all with 21AG. The first Kangaroo is shown as CT-159904 and most are shown with 21 AG while a small number are shown as ‘stock’. The last number in the census is CT-160135.
The use of these late Rams is in keeping with a policy established in December 1943 where it was established that “Training Tanks” (approx 869) were to be limited to mechanical modifications only and no other upgrade. The range was CT-39781 to CT-40937. “Training Firing Tanks” were to be equipped with the 75mm gun with a range of CT-159402 to CT-159501. “Operational Tanks” were complete with all modifications requested by the Cdn AFV User’s Committee and apprived by the GOCinC. These were CT-159502 to CT-160193. These tanks had the new front end including the .30 cal MG ball mount - no cupola. This is in keeping with the Kangaroo issues.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Just a follow up to my earlier post regarding RAM amn carriers (Wallabies - see, I remembered this time Hanno ), the South Alberta Regt (4th CAD - Armd Recce Regt) didn't see these until Mar 45, and were only issued 3 (not 7 as set out in the proposal).

Cheers

[servicepub (RIP)]

A review of the GGFG history makes no mention of their vehicles except one passing mention of the "Sherman Troop" and the "17-pdrs". I think that the turretless Ram shown above (Bill's pic #2) is a 17-pdr Tower.
The GGFG history does talk about carrying soldiers of the Lake Supperior Regt but does not go into any detail.

[Mark W. Tonner]

A related link regarding RAM Wallaby(ies) from an earlier thread here on the forum: Link (the second post by Dana is of interest)

Cheers

[Bill Miller]

Just reading a note in Paul Roberts' book "The Ram: Devlopments and Variants, Vol.1" and I am a bit puzzled about something....

Ram production stopped in the summer of 1943 and Canada went on to build the M4 Grizzlies. However, 28 of the late production Rams built in Canada were supposedly pupose built "turretless" ammunition carriers. "CT 231070-CT 231097".

No photographs seem available, but this alternate, yet very similar use of the RAM predates the "kangaroo" by a full year. (As discussed earlier in this thread, many more conversions to ammo carriers were carried out in Europe in 1944-45.)

Were these 28 Rams truly built "turretless"??? Is there any contemporary (1943) Canadian Army documentation as to the use of Rams for alternate purposes, as by the fall of 1943 it was final that they were to be replaced in all theatres by U.S. Shermans?

I am also puzzled by a footnote in Donald Graves' book, "South Alberta's: A Regiment at War", Chapter 7, Note 4:

"In the spring of 1944 the CAC Operational Training Squadron at Woking experimented with using Ram tanks, with their turrets removed, as APCs. These evolved into the Kangaroo APC." Interview with Danny McLeod, 1996.

??? Spring of 1944, Rams!!!! This predates Simonds, "Totalize" and the M7 Priest APCs? Any idea if there is a way to prove or disprove this? If that is true, it certainly changes the origin story of the "Kangaroo".

Bill..:

[wim sikkelbein]

in the canadian archives there is a picture of a fort garry horse ram ambulance, would/could this be a ram wallaby converted to the ambulance role? What would it take to convert a ram kangaroo/wallaby to an ambulance version?

Crew of a turretless Ram tank used by The Fort Garry Horse as a "flat-top" armoured ambulance, Holten, Netherlands, 8 April 1945
PA-133165

wim

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by wim sikkelbein

in the canadian archives there is a picture of a fort garry horse ram ambulance, would/could this be a ram wallaby converted to the ambulance role? What would it take to convert a ram kangaroo/wallaby to an ambulance version?

Crew of a turretless Ram tank used by The Fort Garry Horse as a "flat-top" armoured ambulance, Holten, Netherlands, 8 April 1945
PA-133165

Hi Wim, this picture was featured in the thread Kangaroo Photos wanted. To my knowledge, there is no information available re. the ambulance versions of the Ram. I guess these were field conversions of whatever turretless Ram was available.

Regards,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bill Miller

Just reading a note in Paul Roberts' book "The Ram: Devlopments and Variants, Vol.1" and I am a bit puzzled about something....

Ram production stopped in the summer of 1943 and Canada went on to build the M4 Grizzlies. However, 28 of the late production Rams built in Canada were supposedly pupose built "turretless" ammunition carriers. "CT 231070-CT 231097".

No photographs seem available, but this alternate, yet very similar use of the RAM predates the "kangaroo" by a full year. (As discussed earlier in this thread, many more conversions to ammo carriers were carried out in Europe in 1944-45.)

Were these 28 Rams truly built "turretless"??? Is there any contemporary (1943) Canadian Army documentation as to the use of Rams for alternate purposes, as by the fall of 1943 it was final that they were to be replaced in all theatres by U.S. Shermans?

Bill, fascinating stuff! When I first read this note, I did not know what to think of it.

But we first need to ascertain if those 28 Rams were actually built turretless, in other words, while being on the assembly line at Montreal Locomotive Works. Another possibility is 28 of the late production Ram tanks were taken from stock later to be converted. This could mean the actual conversion was carried out (much) later than in September 1943.

Also, the fact that they have much higher WD numbers (CT 231070 to CT 231097) than the last Ram OP/Commands built (CT-205122 to CT-205181), does suggest new them being built - or at least contracted - somewhere between the third and forth batch of Sextons (CS204782 to CS204821 and S233626 to S233925 respectively). Now, would they be newly built, from left-over hull castings, or converted from unused stock?

Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bill Miller

I am also puzzled by a footnote in Donald Graves' book, "South Alberta's: A Regiment at War", Chapter 7, Note 4:

"In the spring of 1944 the CAC Operational Training Squadron at Woking experimented with using Ram tanks, with their turrets removed, as APCs. These evolved into the Kangaroo APC." Interview with Danny McLeod, 1996.

??? Spring of 1944, Rams!!!! This predates Simonds, "Totalize" and the M7 Priest APCs? Any idea if there is a way to prove or disprove this? If that is true, it certainly changes the origin story of the "Kangaroo".

Another thing which we need to find out is why these Rams in Woking had their turret removed. I strongly suspect (or: it is one of the options) they were converted for driver training. The same was done with a number of Grizzlies, either during or after WW2.

I can see turretless Rams for driver training being eyed by an infantry officer, who later experimented with them as APCs.

You are right of course, if this is true, the Totalize innovation could be a copy of something experimented earlier. It would make a lot of sense, would it not?

Hanno

[servicepub (RIP)]

"In the spring of 1944 the CAC Operational Training Squadron at Woking experimented with using Ram tanks, with their turrets removed, as APCs. These evolved into the Kangaroo APC." Interview with Danny McLeod, 1996.

God bless our veterans but I am hesitant to re-write the documented history based on an interview 50+ years after the fact.

[Bill Miller]

I think the turretless Rams at Woking might be a case of Driver training vehicles (Though I know my Dad trained with fully turreted ones, as well as the many documentary photos I have support complete tanks too). During my interview with Lt. John Campbell (A Squadron, 1CACR) he says he saw and was around many turretless Rams while training in England? ANother likely possibility is the fact that the Ram Gun Towers were built, trialed and delivered to the 6th Anti-Tank Regt. in May of '44 (IIRC). So those tanks may be the explanation for what MAY have been seen at Woking??

By Totalize the idea of using turretless Rams as Personnel and Ammunition carriers was already in the works, the earliest document I have for purposeful Ram conversions is July 31, 1944. The week before Totalize. Keep in mind the 6th A/T Rams were riding right along with the M7 Priest conversions in Totalize. General O'Connor also claims to have had the idea for APC's in July of '44 for Op. Goodwood but was shot down by Dempsey?? The idea wasn't really too new, it was more of a case that Simonds had the temerity to put the idea into practice. Through serendipity the M7 Priests were available. Stacey, in "The Victory Campaign" says that Simonds was using towed tank or UC hulls in Italy for transporting troops?

In any case, Simonds should get the credit for applying the theory and deploying the improvised Carriers (and the other armour) in a manner that they were tactically successful. Had the Germans been able to use artillery and anti-tank weapons against the "kangaroos" it could have been an absolute massacre and the idea of suing the APC's in an combat role may have been scrapped.

I still don't know what to make of Paul Robert's claim in his book. I have never found any paperwork to support those extra 28 turretless Rams?? I don't think that they were purpose built/converted in Canada, but if there is evidence contrary to that I would love to see it!

Bill.