Discipline in WW2

Hello Everyone,

For starters, thank you to Kevin for inspiring me to start this thread by replying to my questions about discipline in my Uncles thread http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/ne...&threadid=3428 . I took liberties and used your words "discipline in WW2" as the subject line to draw people directly to the general topic, and hope you don't mind.

DISCIPLINE in WW2. What forms of discipline of soldiers were exacted during WW2, and what for? I think of people serving both "at home" and "Overseas".

I hope a lot of people will jump in here with facts and stories of personal experience, or stories told them by those who were there. I know the forces didn't use frying pans to flog people for misbehavior. Or at least, I don't think they did!

Karmen.

Hi Quiet people of MLU

What? No one wants to tell stories about how discipline was meted out, and for what?

I'd still like to know how Uncle Eddie (and Norm Cromie )had to pay for going AWOL.

Karmen.

[Jon Skagfeld]

For openers...Generally speaking a Commanding Officer or his delegated Officer could, by Summary Trial (meaning what he says goes...no appeal!), sentence a man to a maximum of 28 days detention with or without penal servitude.

Scenario: Sergeant Major orders "March the guilty bastard in!"

After due presentation of heavily weighted "evidence", and subsequent quick sentencing, Private Bloggins, the guilty bastard, is marched out, hatless, beltless, at the double, and consigned to either the Regimental Police for a minor offence, or to the Provost Marshall for more serious crimes...if so, thence to the
glasshouse" for "
jankers".

Harsh?...sure... and these same rules applied to the Canadian Forces until very recently, including the death penalty for certain offences.

Originally posted by Jon Skagfeld
Regimental Police for a minor offence, or to the Provost Marshall for more serious crimes...if so, thence to the
glasshouse" for "
jankers".

Harsh?...sure... and these same rules applied to the Canadian Forces until very recently, including the death penalty for certain offences.

Thanks Jon, for giving me some answers now I'll just have to search to find out what "jankers" and "glasshouse" means. I already know what "bastard" means (don't ask)

I'll search after I've eaten my scottish oatmeal (my snack tonight)



Karmen.

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
Thanks Jon, for giving me some answers now I'll just have to search to find out what "jankers" and "glasshouse" means. I already know what "bastard" means (don't ask)

I'll search after I've eaten my scottish oatmeal (my snack tonight)



Karmen.

Yappy...you should find "glasshouse" OK, but I highly doubt that you'll find "jankers".

Let me know how you fare.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Nah, she'll pick up almost immediately. Tons of references on the web...

Forfeiture of pay and forfeiture of leave were also popular punishments. In other cases, I've read of miscreants being 'volunteered' in order to get them out of the CO's hair. As a matter of fact, I know for a fact that at least three of the original 72 Kangaroos ended up in Normandy for precisely that reason...

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Nah, she'll pick up almost immediately. Tons of references on the web...

Forfeiture of pay and forfeiture of leave were also popular punishments. In other cases, I've read of miscreants being 'volunteered' in order to get them out of the CO's hair. As a matter of fact, I know for a fact that at least three of the original 72 Kangaroos ended up in Normandy for precisely that reason...

Know what?...Sunray and Yappy...I Googled both references and, to my surprise, "jankers" was top-most.

I further Googled "glasshouse", for 10 pages, and found nothing relative to military discipline.

Go figure.

Okay ... I found some of the meanings listed. They don't tell me the "form" of punishment though. I do know that losing pay and detention happened. But what were they made to DO while being punished? Were they just locked in a cell to twiddle their thumbs or put to work?

jankers
noun

1. military., slang
Punishment, detention, etc for defaulting.

glasshouse
noun

1. A building with walls and roof constructed mainly or entirely of glass, and with the internal temperature maintained at a constant predetermined level, used for growing plants which need special protection or conditions.
2. slang
A military prison.

Karmen.

Originally posted by Jon Skagfeld
Know what?...Sunray and Yappy...I Googled both references and, to my surprise, "jankers" was top-most.

I further Googled "glasshouse", for 10 pages, and found nothing relative to military discipline.

Go figure.

Jon,

I finally Googled for "ww2 slang glasshouse" and "ww2 slang jankers"

Yappy

[Rich Payne]

This link gives a bit more information about the original "glasshouse"

http://www.hants.gov.uk/museum/alder...lasshouse.html

Rich

[Pedr]

Hey Ma....there is ofcourse the oldest and most familiar punishment in the armed services.

Pedr

Originally posted by Rich Payne
This link gives a bit more information about the original "glasshouse"

http://www.hants.gov.uk/museum/alder...lasshouse.html

Rich

Thanks for that Rich ... I scrolled down to the other links and this one is really neat about Canadians come to Aldershot
http://www.hants.gov.uk/museum/alder...aq/canada.html

I've been enjoying my reading!

Karmen.

Originally posted by Pedr
Hey Ma....there is ofcourse the oldest and most familiar punishment in the armed services.

Pedr

Good one Pedr! Isn't that known as KP?

Ma Yappy

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
Good one Pedr! Isn't that known as KP?

Ma Yappy

The initials "KP" stand for Kitchen Police. It is an American term.

The Canadian/British term "fatigues" encompasses such peeling duties as well as any other DLSJs that had to be done.

Yappy don't bother googling DLSJ...it surely ain't there!

PM if ya really wanna know.

Originally posted by Jon Skagfeld
The initials "KP" stand for Kitchen Police. It is an American term.

The Canadian/British term "fatigues" encompasses such peeling duties as well as any other DLSJs that had to be done.

Yappy don't bother googling DLSJ...it surely ain't there!

PM if ya really wanna know.

Thanks for sorting me out Jon, that KP is an American term!

As for "fatigues" referring to peeling duties and such, I often wonder how these terms are come up with To me, fatiigues" means uniforms and it's a stretch for me to try and figure out how kitchen duties gained the term "fatigues"

Perhaps another coffee will help me figure it out?

Karmen

[Tim Sullivan]

The term "Fatigues" or "Fatigue duty" esp. when you look it up in online dictionaries specifically states that it is specifically non-military work done by soldiers. To pull a possible origin to the term out of my...well, you know where, I'd guess perhaps the term originated describing how one felt after being assigned such duty, i.e. they were quite fatigued when completed, so such the duty was then referred to as that. Sounds kinda lame, but hey, it might work.

Regarding uniforms being called fatigues, that apperntly comes from the fact that the clothing used to complete the "fatigue" duty was often work-dress worn, and not the actual uniform...and thus the uniform worn to complete the fatigue duty became known as "fatigues", and it went from there....

To further possibly answer your question on punishments handed out to those in the military, it is a far too complex question to answer basically in a thread on a forum, because it really isn't a cut and dried area. As pointed out, punishments were as simple as loss of pay/leave for minor infractions, unwanted fatigues duty, to loss of rank, jail time and so on. Depending on what you did, you could also be dismissed from your unit or course, etc, depending on what you did. Reading right now where a couple of paras training at Ft. Benning were caught smoking when told not to and were told to pack up and go home. Severity of the "crime" determined the punishment, as did the "executioner" of the accused.

Hope that helps,

Tim

Hey, Thank you Tim, for your input here

Truth be known, I've never thought much about, nor known exactly what "army fatigues" meant, but always assumed and have had the impression that the term meant "army uniforms" in general (all dressed up in army "at work" clothes) Interesting how terms originate ... I like your idea of fatigues maybe originating from the punishment of fatigueing tasks. Imagine having to peel potatoes for so many!!! My stepfather was a camp cook for a while (like Baker Lake NWT etc) and one summer my Mom, sister, and I went to camp with him and helped him prep and cook for the loggers at Nitinat Lake (Vancouver Island in the boonies). I was 12 and loved the whole summer there! I helped with potatoes There were a lot of loggers to cook for, but am sure the amount of food prep was nothing compared to doing meals for all the troops overseas.

I wonder if my uncle Ed (bless his mischievous heart taking unaurthorized extended holidays making him late for curfew ) was punished by kitchen prep and cleaning work? Hmmmmm. I know he forfeited some pay, and at least one time I think it was "forgiven". I think (have to check his records again) he got some "detentions" for some AWOL's ... and I wonder if that meant "behind bars/confined like jail"?

How I wish I could be sitting with my Uncle Eddie right now and listening to his stories about his life back home, and about his experiences from enlistment and being overseas. And I wonder if while overseas, he found himself a girlfriend and she may be why he took a little more time off than allowed For he was, a young buck, for sure ... a little payloss and detention was probably worth it to him if that were the case I HOPE he experienced some romance before Normandy.

Karmen

[Gunner]

Hi Karmen:

I've worn battle dress, bush dress, combat clothing (combat), work dress, service dress (sometimes incorrectly called DEU), environmental dress, mess kit , tropical tans, tropical worsted ("TWs") and many others in my 35 years (counting four years of cadets). I grew up in a military household posted all over Canada and Europe and I never heard Canadian soldiers call their uniforms "fatigues"... it is another US expression creeping into our lexicon, much like "tour of duty".

As a young cadet and soldier, everytime I got into minor sh*t, I received extra work and drill, "jankers", confinement to barracks (CB) and extra duties (as a young officer) but I don't ever remember being 'sentenced' to fatigues. I have sentenced soldiers to extra work and drill, to CB and to stoppage of leave and I have given rambunctious young officers extra duties (as orderly officer) but I have never sentenced anyone to fatigues.

Different regiments and corps had slang of their own which is why Jon and I may have different experiences but I'm pretty certain that fatigues is also an American term that slid in to the lexicon, perhaps in the 1940's.

I have a friend in NDHQ who is probably the Canadian Forces greatest expert on terminology, official and unofficial (read slang)... I'll ask her.

Mike

[Tony Smith]

Another punishment dreaded by Australian soldiers during Wartime was to be RTA'd. To have RTA on your record meant you would have a very dim future in the Army. Soldiers could bear various forms of detention, extra duty and stoppage of leave or pay but to be "Returned To Australia" was not only shameful during war, but it meant leaving your mates short. On top of that RTA would also be combined with with Stoppages of pay or leave, so on arrival in Australia you wouldn't be free to spend up in the boozer or meet with family. It could also have lifelong ramifications including ineligibilty for medals or pension.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Mike when you said....

"I've worn battle dress, bush dress, combat clothing (combat), work dress, service dress (sometimes incorrectly called DEU), environmental dress, mess kit , tropical tans, tropical worsted ("TWs") and many others in my 35 years .."....You forgot.nekkid,shitface and sandles....

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Concur with Mike on the subject of "fatigues". It's of U.S. origin, much like "Honor Guard" vs "Guard of Honour", but it would be nice to have confirmation for once and for all. The ball is in your court, Mr. Calnan!

PS: If your friend in NDHQ knows THAT much, she should write a book on it!

[sapper740]

Originally posted by Gunner
Hi Karmen:

I've worn battle dress, bush dress, combat clothing (combat), work dress, service dress (sometimes incorrectly called DEU), environmental dress, mess kit , tropical tans, tropical worsted ("TWs") and many others in my 35 years Mike

You forgot Garrison, Gunner, or was that just for Infantry?

You want confusing? Try being a 600 series MOC Engineer when your element is Air Force. Combats or Bush in the field, Work Dress (cotton pants, long sleeved postman blue shirt...now gone), Service Dress (wool pants, short sleeved shirt, undress ribbons) or Environmental (FOD coveralls) while on an air base, Tropical Tans overseas, and DEU's or mess kit for the Dog and Pony shows and Messes. Also, try to explain to an angry R.S.M. why you're wearing blue goretex on HIS Army base or explain to a pissed off C.P.O. why you're tracking mud into a Navy mess hall!
However, never in my career did I ever call any of it "fatigues."

CHIMO!

[Gunner]

From my chum in NDHQ:

"You're right, Mike. Here is the relevant record from the DKIM Terminology Bank (emphasis mine):

Record 32135
Security Level Published
Domain: Human Resources
Sub domain: Ceremonial & Traditions
Sub-sub domain: Dress / Tenue
Record OPI: DEA 3
Authority DEA
Released Yes
Created Date Created By Modified Date Modified By
12/30/1989 Lajeunessej Paquettem
[English]
fatigue dress
Type term
Status: approved
Usage United States
Source document A-GL-397-000/JX-001.
Note(s) AVOID. American term. Not a Canadian Forces order of dress.

Charmion Chaplin-Thomas
English Editor
ADM(PA) Editorial Services


As a note: Charmion has written books on various subjects and acted as editor on a number of military histories published by DND and various regimental or corps associations. She also writes the "Fourth Dimension" found in every edition of the "Maple Leaf".

And for my erudite chum, Alex: pllthrthhtll!

Mike

[Norm Cromie (RIP)]

Carman:
When you realize the great number of servicemen that were involved in peace and wartime responsibilities, discipline was very important as a way of dealing with those that disrupted the success of any military unit and their operations, among them were the good and the bad. They could be very mild or very extreme.
When we were engaged with the battle for Ortona there was an old castle on the outskirts of Ortona that I believe was to deal with mainly the more serious military crimes. It was run by a sadistic Major of the Royal Twenty Second and one of his punishments was having the inmates dig holes 6x6x6 and then fill them in and this was when the prison was at times under fire by the German artillery. I believe there were a number of casualties and so it had to be abandoned. I would ask you to remember this happened over 60 years ago and my memory is not as exact as it should be.
All punishment comes under a book called the Kings rules and regulations but individual military authorities administrated it often times with their own personal interpretations. One of the worst forms I received for coming off leave one day late was seven days forced drill. Each day after evening mess I was made to load up all my web including my big pack and my small pack and my heavy great coat and then under an NCO made to march on the double for two hours with 10 minute interval breaks each hour. I later learned that this type of punishment was abandoned, as a number of soldiers collapsed who could not tolerate this punishment during warm weather. The one thing every soldier must avoid when being confronted for punishment, never listen to the barrack room lawyers regarding the KR&R I can tell you as a young stupid private I was no match for a number of these war experienced officers. They simply applied their own rules according to their mental outlook at the moment.
I remember stories from my uncles who served in WW1 that there were incidents in which deserters were tied to the wheels of artillery pieces during the firing of these weapons in which their guts were turned to jelly. But, in those days there was no forgiveness for those who could not control their emotions and their personal mental strengths.

Thank you all for your input here. It really is interesting reading (and learning)

And ... now I know that "fatigues" is a US term and shall AVOID using it to describe (special thanks to you and your Chum, Gunner )



Karmen.

Originally posted by Norm Cromie
Carman:
When you realize the great number of servicemen that were involved in peace and wartime responsibilities, discipline was very important as a way of dealing with those that disrupted the success of any military unit and their operations, among them were the good and the bad. They could be very mild or very extreme.

Hi Norm,

You have no problem convincing me of the importance of discipline when I know that EVERYTHING, including saving lives, hangs/hung on the cooperation and follow-throughs of everyone involved. Obedience through fear of disciplinary punishment was/is good when there's no time to drill in the necessary understanding of the importance of "why" obedience is needed to begin with. No time, just gotta get the job done.

I would also think that discipline was especially necessary when in the case of going off to war, using newly enlisted people who have never had, and many never will again have once home again, military experience.

When we were engaged with the battle for Ortona there was an old castle on the outskirts of Ortona that I believe was to deal with mainly the more serious military crimes. It was run by a sadistic Major of the Royal Twenty Second and one of his punishments was having the inmates dig holes 6x6x6 and then fill them in and this was when the prison was at times under fire by the German artillery. I believe there were a number of casualties and so it had to be abandoned. I would ask you to remember this happened over 60 years ago and my memory is not as exact as it should be.

Yes, times were sure different then.

All punishment comes under a book called the Kings rules and regulations but individual military authorities administrated it often times with their own personal interpretations. One of the worst forms I received for coming off leave one day late was seven days forced drill. Each day after evening mess I was made to load up all my web including my big pack and my small pack and my heavy great coat and then under an NCO made to march on the double for two hours with 10 minute interval breaks each hour. I later learned that this type of punishment was abandoned, as a number of soldiers collapsed who could not tolerate this punishment during warm weather. The one thing every soldier must avoid when being confronted for punishment, never listen to the barrack room lawyers regarding the KR&R I can tell you as a young stupid private I was no match for a number of these war experienced officers. They simply applied their own rules according to their mental outlook at the moment.

I don't know yet what march "on the double" means?

I remember stories from my uncles who served in WW1 that there were incidents in which deserters were tied to the wheels of artillery pieces during the firing of these weapons in which their guts were turned to jelly.

Deserters were considered the worst of the lot and punished very harshly, from everything I've learned and read so far. Yikes.

But, in those days there was no forgiveness for those who could not control their emotions and their personal mental strengths. [/B]

Understood.



Karmen.