Ram Command /OP

David Herbert · #1 23-03-10, 22:13

I have the remains of a very late Ram which I intend to restore as a Command / OP tank. I have owned it for longer than I care to admit but things got stalled whenI got divorced and then other stuff got in the way but I have now got back to trying to find out what was inside C/OPs so that I can reproduce it.

All the published photos that I can find relate to the pilot vehicle which was significantly different to the production ones. These photos usualy have a small white lable visible somewhere with a nomber in the 2xx range and show the contractor's first attempt at fulfilling the spec. Idealy I would like to find factory photos of the production C/OPs being built or even better original engineering drawings of the interior fittings.

The production C/OPs were nombered in the CT20xxxx series in two batches ( see ramtank.ca ) but I have no idea if the shop no. followed on from the gun tanks or were in their own series or if there was a difference between the two batches. I am quite sure, despite statements in many articles on Ram, that although there was definately the intent to convert existing gun tanks in the UK this was never done. Also I have found no evidence of them in the British Army. There are references to Ram GPO but I am satisfied that these are very early Sextons (which initialy were known as 25pdr Ram SP) with the guns removed very much like the Priest Kangaroo. There was one in a scrap yard in the south of England (now safe with a private collector) and I have spoken to several veterans who used them but none who remembered Ram C/OP.

I have the Operators Manual CMD-LW1 but have never seen the Parts list Suppliment for the C/OP which would obviously be a big help. Anyone out there got one ?

In the book 'Design Record Canadian - Developed military vehicles WW2' there is a list of Files, Design change instructions, Design deviation permits and Design change requests. Does anyone have access to these so that I could obtain copies ?

If anyone out there is interested in my quest I would very much like to hear from them and will of course do my best to help anyone that I can.

Best wishes to friends old and new

David

servicepub (RIP) · #2 24-03-10, 00:52

Hi Dave,
Welcome back. To determine the "CT" numbers for Ram Command and OP tanks with shop numbers between 1 and 24 add 202112 and for shop numbers between 25 and 84 add 205097 (from RamTank.ca)
As to the files, etc.. cited in the 'Design Record', none of these has been located although many of the photographs have now found their way (through a number of circuitous routes) to the CWM. As I understand it, the Department of Munitions and Supply stored all of their records at war's end but these were soon moved/lost/destroyed and few files ever made it to the Library & Archives Canada (LAC). There is a rumour that LAC has a large number of DMS files which have yet to be accessioned but they have no archivist to undertake this task.
I hope to publish a 'big' book on the Ram in the next couple of years. This is currently being researched through LAC by our very own Roger Lucy. He has allready uncovered a number of interesting files which will shed new light on the subject.

Roger Lucy · #3 24-03-10, 14:55

I want to get through all of DND's copious files on the Ram before tackling the question of what happened to the bulk of DM&S' files. Some are accessible, but these are mainly contract files which can yield some interesting information, but what happened to all of the Army Engineering Design Branch's out-put (and the files cited in the Design Record and in AHQ Report 38 on Tank Production) remains a mystery. A footnote in the AHQ report says "Note: All Department of Munitions and Supply Files are in deep storage in the basement of the New Supreme Court Building" -that was 60 years ago. After the Design Record was drawn up, and the AEDB disbanded, the bulk of its project files were reportedly entrusted to DND for future reference, in case it became necessary to ramp-up defence production again. One fears that after mouldering there a while, they may have been scattered or ended up in some dumpster.

The pilot Ram OP was assembled in the fall of 1942, and having served its purpose, converted back into a gun tank in May 1943. After toying with converting the Ram Is in the UK into OP tanks, using kits sent over from Canada, 84 new production OP tanks were ordered. Their production after delays caused by non-delivery of the engines from the USA, began in August 1943 with the last OP tanks delivered by mid-October. In addition there had been plans to produce 33 Grizzly OPs but these were cancelled when Grizzly production was halted in January, 1944. Instead an additional 24 Ram IIs converted to OP tanks in the UK by the Canadian Base Ordnance Workshops. in May 1944.

Re the Sexton GPO, that was indeed a unfrocked Sexton with extra radios and map tables.28 were ordered in June 1943 but cancelled in November.instead they were converted from existing vehicles in the UK.

David Herbert · #4 24-03-10, 15:59

Clive,

Thanks for responding, its nice to have contact after so long. Also thanks for the two books which arrived quicker than I had expected.

Roger,

Also thanks for responding. We realy need to be in direct contact ! If that is ok with you please let me know via Email or PM and we can go from there. You have obviously found a document relating to the conversion of cruisers into C/OPs in the UK. Any chance of a scan of it ? Do we know which tanks were converted ?

As you probably know all Ram hull and turret castings had a unique nomber cast into them. I think that Hanno tried to make a list of these - I have some. These were allocated randomly to confuse everyone but there must have been a record as there are documents relating to the wrongly CT nombered group of Rams where shop, hull, turret, engine, right & wrong CT and I think some other nombers were quoted. If you find this master list it would make it possible to identify any hull or turret even though rust or damage had removed the shop no. on the fender support tube.

Regards to you both

David

Roger Lucy · #5 24-03-10, 16:24

David,
So far i have not seen the master list of casting numbers. There is a fair amount of rather ill-tempered correspondence between DND and DM&S on file about the great mantlet mix-up. One of the problems was that no part number was cast on to the mantlets so the poor sods at CBOW who were charged with matching the right mantlet to the right adaptor plate had to measure each and every one to see which ones needed to be switched around.
Roger

David Herbert · #6 24-03-10, 17:01

Roger,

That's mass production for you! In theory they should have been interchangable but obviously not. I was not awear of unique nos on the adaptor plates so will go and look at mine. It and the turret are genuine C/OP (turret cast no 1111) but all the fittings were removed long ago so have to be recreated.

David

David Herbert · #7 24-03-10, 17:22

More: Just been to look and I dont see a unique no on the adaptor. It has what I take to be drawing/part nos but thats all unless stamped in nos come to light when I sand blast it. The turret has 6379 stamped into it as well as the cast 1111. For the record the hull has 1655 with a pour date of 2-43 and the general steel logo on the underside of the rear overhang . It is of the very final style including late electrical system and ventilators on the rear corners but does not have the general steel logo on the front as did roughly the last 50 RamII hulls.

Roddy de Normann · #8 28-03-10, 12:23

David -

My ha'pence worth to your Ram OP Project. The fol are the only CT Nos I have on record...

CT. 202117

Ram C OP Tank - Numbers allotted to Canadians - 23rd (Canadian) Field Regiment RCA, B Sqn, 25th (Canadian) Armoured Delivery Regiment & 264 Special Delivery Squadron, RAC

01 Jul 45 - Veh SOS 23 Fd Regt to B Sqn, 25 CADR then on to 264 Spec Del Sqn - Can LA Microfilm, T-12742

CT. 202123 - Ram C OP Tank - Numbers allotted to Canadians

4th Veh Repl Dep, 1st (Canadian) Central Ordnance Depot, F & E Sqns, 25th (Canadian) Armoured Delivery Regiment (Elgin Regiment)

8 Jun 44 - UK. Veh fm CCOD to 25 CADR -
12 Jun 44 - Veh delivered by 'F' Sqn to 'E' Sqn prior to going out to units - Regt War Diary, Can NA Microfilm T-12735

Not much I am affraid, although I still have a number of files to go through thanks to the quite marvellous International Lending System Canada runs.

I am always looking for new sources in order to continue matching T/CT Numbers to vehicles and then on to units. A long, long task I know...but keeps me off the streets !

Roddy