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Old 09-03-21, 15:17
Jack Geratic Jack Geratic is offline
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Question 'C' markings on very late war Shermans/Kangaroos?

What exactly do these markings represent? Were they tactical, or specifically applied to those vehicles handed over to the Dutch at war's end?

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regards,
Jack

Last edited by Jack Geratic; 09-03-21 at 15:23.
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  #2  
Old 09-03-21, 16:56
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Default Condition class

Hello Jack,

Good question, I posed a similar one but cannot find it back.

I do recall Mark Tonner saying these were classification codes denoting the condition of the vehicle. If I recall correctly, C-I denotes it is in ready to use condition, in need of daily maintenance by the crew only. C-IV is the other end of the scale and it denotes the vehicle is severely worn out and needs to be rebuilt at depot level or struck off charge.

As war in NW Europe was coming to an end, the Canadian Army started "vetting" their equipment for further use in the Pacific and/or disposal after the hostilities ended.
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Old 09-03-21, 17:11
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Default Classification of Vehicles (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra View Post
Good question, I posed a similar one but cannot find it back.
Ah yes, it was on FB. I quote it here for future reference:

Quote:
C IV… what does it mean?

As recently as yesterday, we’ve been asked what this mysterious marking as found on the Kangaroo APCs at the end of the war means? To tell the truth, it wasn’t until about two and half years ago that our own Mark Tonner cracked the code.
This marking only appears on the Kangaroo hulls in photos taken in June 1945, just before the Armoured Carriers were taken away to Ordnance depots and the Regiment disbanded. The stencil/marking is not mentioned in either the war diaries of the Regiment or the attached RCEME unit (123 LAD). We had always surmised that it was some sort of Transport of Field Park inventory code. The same marking was applied to fronts of ALL the Kangaroos.
Turns out it is a ‘classification’ code for demobilized vehicles, and there are six different classes. In March 2018, Mark Tonner came across the Library and Archives document that explained it all.
Sadly it was not good news. Apparently ‘C IV’ isn’t a very good grade.

RG24, C-2, Volume: 12500, File: 6/MOB ORDER GEN/1
Classification of Vehicles
(I) “A” Vehicles

Class I
Vehicles which are fit for active service, or can be made fit by 1st echelon repairs and have not exceeded the following mileages since new or complete overhaul:
- Tanks, all types 500 miles
- Armoured cars, all types 5000 miles
- Scout cars, all marks 5000 miles
- Carriers, all types 1000 miles
- Other armoured wheeled vehicles, all types 5000 Miles

Class II
As for Class I, but which exceed Class I mileage limits and do not exceed the following:
- Tanks, all types 1500 miles
- Armoured cars, all types 8000 miles
- Scout cars, all marks 8000 miles
- Carriers, all types 2500 miles
- Other armoured wheeled vehicles, all types 8000 Miles

Class III
Vehicles which are in good running condition or can be made so by 1st echelon repairs, but which exceed the mileage limits laid down for Class II.

Class IV
Vehicles which do not conform to Class I, II or III standards, but which can be brought up to one of these standards by 2nd echelon repairs.

Class V
Vehicles which do not conform to Class I, III or III standards, but which can be brought up to one of these standards by 3rd or 4th echelon repairs.

Class VI
Vehicles which are considered beyond economical repair.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

The Four Echelons of Repair

1st Echelon Repairs (minor repairs)
- is the first stage of repair of equipment and in this stage, work is limited to minor repairs, replacements and adjustments, which can be carried out in unit lines with the troops provided in the (AFG) 1098 table of equipment of the unit and with the tools of the RCEME personnel attached to the unit.

2nd Echelon Repairs (replacement of assemblies)
- is the second stage of repair of equipment, and in this stage, the main function is the replacement of defective assemblies by new or reconditioned assemblies. In addition, repairs are carried out to certain assemblies, and to items not dealt with as assemblies, so far as they can be completed satisfactorily in the time available, with the equipment and personnel available in the workshop. Generally, an assembly should only be repaired in second echelon when it can be repaired quicker and more satisfactorily than it can be replaced.

3rd Echelon Repairs (repair of assemblies)
- is a stage in which the main function is complementary to that of second echelon. The work is mainly the repair of assemblies that have been replaced by second echelon workshops. The repair of an assembly is normally carried out by replacing the defective components or items of the assembly with new or reconditioned components. The repair of defective components is also undertaken in third echelon workshops when the repairs involved do not require extensive or elaborate plant. Third echelon work also includes the replacement of certain assemblies that are not conveniently replaceable in second echelon workshops on account of the time, labour or special apparatus required.

4th Echelon Repairs (major repairs)
- is the final stage of repair of equipment and, in this stage, repairs are only limited by the personnel, stores, workshop facilities, and time that can be made available for the work to be carried out, and by consideration of the extent to which repairs are worthwhile in the prevailing circumstances.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Since then we’ve also found some photos of other vehicles that have had classification codes applied to them as they went into Army Storage Depots for reassignment or disposal.
Quite coincidentally, yesterday the Archive stumbled across the original late 1943 documents that outlined the initial classification codes. You’ll note the Ram Tank doesn’t appear on the list of ‘A’ (Armoured) Vehicles as they were already to be replaced in active operations by the American Sherman.
In 2011, when we provided the Canadian War Museum instructions for marking their Ram Kangaroo, ‘Marion II’, we included the application of the ‘C IV’ marking. However, last year as they were getting ‘Marion II’ running, we had them remove the ‘C IV’ as their Kangaroo is definitely in fit, fighting shape once again. C-1 !
(WJM/MWT)
Source: https://www.facebook.com/CanadianKan...98634036867424
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  #4  
Old 09-03-21, 17:11
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Default Classification of Vehicles (2)

Plus the pictures attached to the original post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Miller View Post
Since then we’ve also found some photos of other vehicles that have had classification codes applied to them as they went into Army Storage Depots for reassignment or disposal.


Detail of the front of 'FAME' (CT160098) from June of 1945. The 'C IV' classification mark has been highlighted in orange.
'C IV' is an ordnance classification denoting that this vehicle needs significant repairs to bring it up to a fit for continued service standard.
The Ram Kangaroos by June of 1945 had travelled hundreds of miles on their own tracks and experienced dozens of enemy engagements. Most of the Rams had already had significant repairs and extensive parts replacements done by Army Workshops and the unit's L.A.D.
Regardless of this care, they were pretty tired vehicles by war's end.
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photo: 1CACR Archive. Detail of LAC image C-038813.


Annotated screenshot from the Canadian Army newsreel #105 showing the Demobilized Vehicle Park outside of Amsterdam. here, some Light Armoured Cars have been classified C-II and C-III...
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Detail of a Dutch Archive image (Spaarnestad Foto) showing Ordnance Dump Deelen in June of 1946.
Heavy Armoured Cars, Humbers and Staghounds, classed as C-II and C-III...
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Detail of a Dutch Archive image (Spaarnestad Foto) showing Ordnance Dump Deelen in June of 1946.
RCEME Breakdowns, one is a sorry state C-IV, another a ready-to-go C-I...
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'B' Vehicles, the softskinned ones like Jeeps, Trucks and motorcycles were also given similar classification.
Detail of a Dutch Archive image (Spaarnestad Foto) showing Ordnance Dump Deelen in June of 1946.
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  #5  
Old 09-03-21, 17:19
Jack Geratic Jack Geratic is offline
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Hello Hanno, thank you very much for the detailed response, and great photos too!

regards,
Jack
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  #6  
Old 09-03-21, 17:20
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Default Classification of Vehicles (3)

Bill Miller wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Miller View Post
Quite coincidentally, yesterday the Archive stumbled across the original late 1943 documents that outlined the initial classification codes. You’ll note the Ram Tank doesn’t appear on the list of ‘A’ (Armoured) Vehicles as they were already to be replaced in active operations by the American Sherman.


'Most Secret' !!! Classification of Armoured Fighting Vehicles. Dont' let the enemy know which ones are ready for the scrap heap...
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LAC Reel C-5772, p.4188


The original September 1943 Classification of Armoured Fighting Vehicles that continued from late 1943 through 1946.
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LAC Reel C-5772, p.4189
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  #7  
Old 09-03-21, 17:25
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Geratic View Post
Hello Hanno, thank you very much for the detailed response, and great photos too!
My pleasure, Jack!

Where did you find the photos you posted?
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  #8  
Old 09-03-21, 17:40
Jack Geratic Jack Geratic is offline
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Those were posted by another gentleman on a current discussion over at missinlynx:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/miss...n-t327324.html

I think only question remains now, were FGH in Vorden on April 2/3 1945, or is the date of those photos much later?

regards,
Jack
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