Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Eric R.]

That is some excellent work.

[Mike Kelly]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

One of the Holy Grails was found! That being a colour chip card from Berger paints along with two other specific samples. They were found in files MP508/1 [ 305/773/146] and MP508/1 [305/773/146] I have attached photos of these. Negotiations with the Archives are ongoing to have spectrometer readings made available and attached to the file notes.
Interestingly I was told that there is a lot of equipment to do this kind of work in the Archives lad and the nearby art gallery lab but both facilities are unused on account of the lack of staff and funding to run them. It makes sense that they would have that stuff from a conservation point of view. It is incredible that the very expensive equipment including x-ray facilities is unused.

Fantastic work ......... " you ought to be congratulated "

[BSM]

Gina, having spent many hours in the AWM, various offices of the NAA and various State Libraries myself I can well appreciate the substantial effort you must have put in to once again bring to light the valuable information regarding
Military "paint" that you continue to post for the benefit of forum members. A treasure hunt can be very rewarding and I echo the sentiments of the previous 2, congratulations and well done. If you happen to trip over any info re WW1 paint supply in your travels I would be pleased to hear of same. Regards... Rod

[Mrs Vampire]

Many thanks everyone for you kind words and encouragement.

Rod I will keep my eyes peeled for WWI stuff. I imagine that is close to the Genesis of WWII paint and given that Alkyds and Nitrocellulose lacquers weren't invented until the mid to late twenties....I wonder what on earth they used!!!

[Mike Cecil]

So, Gina, hopefully we'll see all of this research consolidated into a publication 'Australian Camouflage of the Second World War' (or similar - my mundane titles need a little work!) sometime?

I'm sure there is a lot more complexity to what you have discovered and 'distilled' out for presentation here, but it would be great to have all that detail in a handy reference (websites are a bit too 'temporary' for my liking - flick off the power and they are gone. I suppose that's old fashioned?) . I'm always ready to buy a copy or two of a good reference.

Nice work.

Mike

[Mike Kelly]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

So, Gina, hopefully we'll see all of this research consolidated into a publication 'Australian Camouflage of the Second World War' (or similar - my mundane titles need a little work!) sometime?

I'm sure there is a lot more complexity to what you have discovered and 'distilled' out for presentation here, but it would be great to have all that detail in a handy reference (websites are a bit too 'temporary' for my liking - flick off the power and they are gone. I suppose that's old fashioned?) . I'm always ready to buy a copy or two of a good reference.

Nice work.

Mike

Ive been thinking along the same lines . A smallish book could be published , the many publishing formats these days . Of course it takes time and the rewards are not always forthcoming

[Mike Cecil]

Yes, it takes time, but Gina is apparently already spending a significant amount of time in the research phase, so I was hoping to motivate her to move to the publishing phase......

REWARDS??? Only the love of the subject, Mike......

After 10 or 11 books, with two more currently 'in press' and due to be released in 2015, I can assure you that the rewards are NOT financial!!

Krystii keeps pointing out that maybe its the subject matter ....you know, dry, lack of character development (even characters!!), plot, etc etc !! Hmmm.... she may have a point there.

We do it because .... well, I'm not really sure sometimes...

Mike

[Mrs Vampire]

So far as a book on camouflage is concerned my main worry is that it would be hard to find .... :/

[Mike Cecil]

chuckle.. chuckle!!

Nice one Gina!

[cliff]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

So far as a book on camouflage is concerned my main worry is that it would be hard to find .... :/

LOL good one. BUT! If there was one I'd find it for my collection

[Mrs Vampire]

another file released.

It cost me thirty bucks so you could read it so I hape you all do

http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/NAAMe...=3367640&T=PDF

[Mrs Vampire]

next file this one with a sample and formulation

http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/NAAMe...=3367578&T=PDF

[Mike Kelly]

Gina

Have you found a actual colour sample of Dark Tarmac No. 4 ?

Im sure my Morris PU was painted with that disruptive colour 'DT #4 , traces of a very dark green, almost black green ( possibly dark tarmac ) are seen over a lighter green .

[Mrs Vampire]

Mike that file contains a colour swatch.

Its the very last page in the file. The colour is of course no good on a computer but you could visit the file in Melbourne and look at it. I hope to get a spectrograph of it when I can organize a meter.

It was very very dark nearly black with a greenish tinge

[Mrs Vampire]

Now this is absolutely startling in terms of approved colours and vehicles so treated!
From the Paints control file MP392/37 control symbol 525/100/849

[Mrs Vampire]

Camouflage paint file with samples has now been scanned and is available online as a PDF ( MP508/1 controll 305/733/244 bar 3367609 )

The colours look quite nice , I think they have done a good job of scanning them. Although not suitable for colour matching ( they are somewhat darker than the original and screens being what the are and printers adding to the disparity ) its a good file.

This is one of three sample sets in public hands. I hope at some point to manage to get a spectrometer measurement from all three.

Keith web has put a photo up elsewhere ( Facebook :/ ) showing KG2 the Khaki green J in this file ,when viewed in the flesh , is about the same as that sample (KG2) . In the archive scan it looks closer to KG3 such is the problems with scanners etc..The printed copies they sent me are even darker.

http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/NAAMedia/ShowImage.asp…

[Mrs Vampire]

here is the PDF I hope .

Looks like the file is too big to put up here

[Mike Kelly]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

here is the PDF I hope .

Looks like the file is too big to put up here

can you put the file on a server somewhere ?

[Mrs Vampire]

Mike it is available using the link I posted previously I can pvt you the link or the pdf if you want.

But the file is on the Archives of Australia web site as a pdf if you search bar code 3367609 that will find it .
Because the PDF is in colour it is quite large for an archives file and not able to be stored on this site.

[Mike Kelly]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

Mike it is available using the link I posted previously I can pvt you the link or the pdf if you want.

But the file is on the Archives of Australia web site as a pdf if you search bar code 3367609 that will find it .
Because the PDF is in colour it is quite large for an archives file and not able to be stored on this site.

The link doesnt work ? I am at a public library computer .

bar code search on the naa site ? how is that done ?

[Mrs Vampire]

fair question Mike.

The links to search results often dont work

if you go to http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/

or Google National archives of Australia search the collection you will see a litle blue link called "Record Search "

click on that and it will take you to the green page with six tabs. Basic Search " , "advanced search " "name search "photo search" "passenger arrival index " and "Help"

click on advanced search
Then a rectangular box comes up with seven other rectangles in it. Click on the bottom one that says "Items"

Then a series of fill in boxes appear with labels next to them. Find the one that says "Item bar code"

enter the bar-code and go down to the bottom of the page and click on "search"
That will take you to the "Item Details" listing.

If you look up in the right hand end of the light green bar that starts with the file number ( MP508/1 etc.. ) you will see a PDF symbol and a "view digital copy" tiny square page looking thing .

Click on the PDF for a pdf file you can save to memory stick or print out or click on view digital copy. The digital copy is one page at a time and quite tedious to copy each page individual.

For full search of the file then back on the page with the fifteen selection boxes type the series number in the box that say series number ...in thios case MP508/1 and type in the control number in the box that asks for that in this case 305/733/244

Both methods will get you there .

Lets know how you fare

[Tony Mathers]

Thanks - this is great stuff.



At the bottom of the search page is a tab for:
Advanced search of item

then paste the barcode into the barcode search box....


ooooops sorry

[Bob Carriere]

Downloaded very well from govt. site

Bob C

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Got down as far as "enter the bar code". What bar code??????

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

fair question Mike.

The links to search results often dont work

if you go to http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/

or Google National archives of Australia search the collection you will see a litle blue link called "Record Search "

click on that and it will take you to the green page with six tabs. Basic Search " , "advanced search " "name search "photo search" "passenger arrival index " and "Help"

click on advanced search
Then a rectangular box comes up with seven other rectangles in it. Click on the bottom one that says "Items"

Then a series of fill in boxes appear with labels next to them. Find the one that says "Item bar code"

enter the bar-code and go down to the bottom of the page and click on "search"
That will take you to the "Item Details" listing.

If you look up in the right hand end of the light green bar that starts with the file number ( MP508/1 etc.. ) you will see a PDF symbol and a "view digital copy" tiny square page looking thing .

Click on the PDF for a pdf file you can save to memory stick or print out or click on view digital copy. The digital copy is one page at a time and quite tedious to copy each page individual.

For full search of the file then back on the page with the fifteen selection boxes type the series number in the box that say series number ...in thios case MP508/1 and type in the control number in the box that asks for that in this case 305/733/244

Both methods will get you there .

Lets know how you fare

[Mrs Vampire]

I want to put this out there for comments.

so far my reading says to me.

Khaki green no 3 is a british colour not an Australian Colour. I have found plenty of reference to it in the files but no so far as the actual specifications manufacture and supliers are concerned.

Army files tend to refer to it when the Australian Standard Khaki Green J is the actual colour they mean. I have found no evidence that khaki Green No 3 was made in Australia by any paint manufacturer.

I have found plenty of evidence that paint makers and users were required to use paint to the Australian Standard (E) 2K 509 and that the colour chip-set in that standard is the colours required.
It seems from my reading the army folk were inclined to refer to Khaki J from that chip-set as Khaki Green Number three and that a perception that because that colour was changed three times ( twice in 1942 and once in 1943 ) the resulting colour was Khaki green version 3 or number 3.

The conflation with the British standard paint terminology and the Australian colour has , in my opinion , led to confusion.

I have been unable to find a definitive history of the British colour save to say I know it is not a B.S 987 colour ( http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/archive/in...p/t-29937.html ) and it appears it was a standard outside of that British standard on an official chip .

Given that I will desist from referring to the Australian colour as Khaki Green Number 3 (KG3) and refer to it as Australian Khaki 1,2 or 3 and (J) if you will. AK1 AK2 and AK3

I understand the British KG3 is somewhat different to AK3 and a deferral to the British colour would be inaccurate. I am now attempting to source a sample of British KG3 for comparisons.

The matter is further confused by the Spartan paint chart referring to "Foliage green as K3 and "dark Green" as K2 ( the correct letter being M )the Berger chart referring to Foliage green as K (correctly) Khaki Green as J ( correctly) but omitting "dark green"

Dakin and Camouflage committee and the Australian standard are clear that the vehicle colour we all vex about is AK (J)

Shane posted a picture earlier of a can of KG3 with the following writing on it as far as I can make out from the photo. D^D paint spec Cam 11.5 Khaki Green No 3 Berger No XA369 GP 553 Bomb Section Specialization.
Unfortunately no further information on that can of paint was forthcoming. Where did it come from or the provision of a sample.

It is not clear if the paint is of British or Australian origin ( Berger being a British firm made paints in the UK , Australia India and elsewhere ) perhaps someone expert on broad arrows could help with that.

My thoughts for now .

[Mrs Vampire]

Sorry Bruce the Bar code for that file is 3367609

the bar code is displayed if you do an item search using the file number and control number

sorry I neglected that detail...

[Mrs Vampire]

So here is the Dakin Report in its original form.

The final report held by the Australian War Memorial is missing all of the deleted and preliminary notes in this version.
The AWM being the difficult folk that they are will not put their version online so it is doubly unhelpful. Their version has some interesting and useful attachments including part of the Australian Standard (E) for paint..unfortunately the paint chipset book has been removed at some point.

This version held in Sydney by the National Archives is complete but without the attachments held by the AWM. The Sydney set also come with an extensive photo collection of the work done by the Camo Lab and many of the shots used in their brochures and pamphlets.

Search National Archives of Australia advanced search bar code 1855480 will lead to the PDF

http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/Searc...=1855480&T=PDF

[Mrs Vampire]

Some more recent discoveries.

I purchased Mike Starmers book that included a chip of deep Bronze Green No 24 and compared it with the base coat of Green on the Stuart.
The exercise confirms the Tank was exported from the Berwick plant painted British Deep Bronze Green 24 . The next coat up being Khaki J and a later disruptive coat of Light stone N.
I have an original pristine sample of the interior Off White that i will have spectrographed.
The interior of the fuel tank bays and under all of the top armor is Light Green etch primer. Looks very much like the etch primer colour I have seen on P-40 Ms and Ns ( earlier P-40 being a darker shade)
The engine mount is clearly Olive Drab 9 and compare well with the sample .

[Mrs Vampire]

I also was kindly sent a paint chip matched by Jacques

My opinion is that it is a good match with the 1942 Khaki Green J paint chip.

I understand from Jacques' letter his CMP is late production Australian Ford CMP . He indicated that means late 1944 early 1945.

Both GMH and Ford were using 1942 Khaki Green J until the end of production to a lesser or greater extent.

All parts and assemblies made before Dec 1944 would be the 1942 colour. Things like sump protection pans, fan shrouds, brackets ,seats and so on would all have been the early colour and in my experience were that colour on NOS parts sold after the war.

The manufactures and subies had a lot of it , they were going to use it and they were not inclined to respray parts already painted.

The decision to move to Australian KG3 was made in Nov 1944 ( off the top of my head ) That decision meant any vehicles deployed overseas would be repainted the darker colour and I suppose, but have no proof yet, the specification for new production vehicles would have been changed.

The order for mainland vehicles being more generally repainted was more an early 1945 order and as I indicated earlier was one where eggshell gloss applied to the north of Australia and overseas and full gloss to Vehicles that were unlikely to be in a "War" zone.

The manufacturers appear to have simply over sprayed vehicles as they came off the line and incorporated the new colour in a transitional way so I would suppose many would have KG3 on most everything but Khaki J on things that would require dismantlement to repaint.

That poses a quandary for the restorer as one might find Khaki J on the tops of chassis rails or under lap joints when the vehicle was essentially painted KG3 all over from the factory.

The archival evidence is that the time from issuing an order in respect of colour change to it being implemented was long and inconsistent. Given production of CMP ceased very shortly after the KG3 order was issued I think very very few vehicles wold have departed the factory entirely in that colour and none without some remnant parts being Khaki J

I think most vehicles that were KG3 would have been painted that colour by Army engineering depots and re-fitment workshops.

Because of that I think the restorer is best to select the period the vehicle represents and go with the scheme for that time unless more complete and compelling evidence is found to support the original external paint scheme.

My experience is that the KG3 fades to a colour that is hard to distinguish from faded Khaki J ...and given they are both from the same basic formula and tinted and toned to the final colour, that's not surprising .
The Gloss level Jacques achieved with the "Flatted" sample supplied me is a little higher gloss than eggshell . It looks like it is closer to 10% ( maybe 7 or 8%) eggshell being around 2-3% .
A complicating factor is that Khaki J was toned down towards the end of 1942 and again in mid 1943 making it closer and closer to KG3

I think of all the pragmatic choices, gloss level is the biggest. The flatter the look the higher the maintenance and respray interval. I am a dead flat person but The vehicles I have seen painted eggshell look grand .

[Mike Kelly]

I read somewhere that there was a shortage of yellow pigment in certain areas , a yellow tint is needed for the making of the khaki green .

I have a 1939 GMH made chev cab, it has a little tag on the cab that looks to be there from new stating, "this vehicle is finished in synthetic enamel" I will take a pic of the tag