Who really got Michel Wittman?

[John McGillivray]

Many of the points put forward appendix E concering the end of Michel Wittmann, in Brian Reid’s book “No Holding Back” were previous stated in a 2001 dissertation for a Masters of Arts degree in history at the University of New Brunswick, by Lawrence James Zaporzan, entitled “Rad’s War: A Biographical Study of Sydney Valpy Radley-Walters from Mobilization to the End of the Normandy Compaign 1944”.

From the research by Zaporzan and Reid, the most likely scenario is that Wittmann fell victim to someone from “A” Squadron of the Sherbrooke Fusiliers Regiment. But who? Neither Zaporzan nor Reid names the tank commander who got in the kill shot.

However, one of Radley-Walters troop commanders Lt (later Capt) Thomas Garfield (Garry) Gould is quoted in the book “Rare Courage” by Rod Michleburgh as stating that the troop commander who got Wittmann was killed four days later ( i.e. August 12). The action on the 12th of August is covered in Radley-Walters biography and includes the following:

“Rad remembers that Barbery was quite a fight and that he lost one of his Troop Leaders there:

“At Barbery, [Lieutenant] Bill Logan was a Troop Leader. Bill was about 100 yards on my left. There was a SP gun out there somewhere and it fired and it knocked him out. I jumped out of the tank. They [the crew] seemed to be coming out very slowly. Bill tried to get out. but he got about half way out, but fell back inside. He got out again and flopped on the ground. By that time I had got over to him. He was hit in the chest. To me, I didn't think that he was hit too badly, [but] he was bleeding and so on. We put a field dressing on him and we started to move him but he said. "No Major Rad. Don't take me out [yet]. There is something I want. I always admired the orders that you gave us." He was one of the new Troop Leaders and he had his little notebook [for taking orders] in behind the radio set. He said, "If I am going out, please get my notebook." I thought. "Jesus, Who wants to crawl in that thing?!" There was [still] the SP a couple of hundred yards away. Anyway, I jumped in and grabbed the notebook and got out. By that time a couple of infantry were around and they had the stretcher bearers. I said, "Want a cigarette?" He had a cigarette and we moved him out. I never thought anything more of it. We were having casualties all the time. But, they never got him back to the casualty clearing station. He died on the way.”

So probably it should be Lt. Bill Logan of SFR who should be credited for the removal of Michel Wittmann.

[Rich Payne]

Would this be him ?


http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_...sualty=2059545

[John McGillivray]

It appears that he is the gentleman in question. Bill may be his nickname or perhaps Rad just got his first name wrong.

[Wolfkin]

Hello John!

I noticed your post on the ML Forum and responded there as well. I also noticed that a lot of people seem to have the opinion that it does not matter who got Wittmann. For the most part, I disagree with the opinion that it does not matter who killed Michael Wittmann because for the sake of historical accuracy it does matter. Of course I understand the opinion that it doesn’t matter as long as such a dangerous foe was killed but as a researcher, as many of us are, one should strive to know the facts. The facts are that a Canadian Sherman Firefly fired the lethal shot that destroyed Michael Wittmann’s Tiger and killed him. I think that anyone that reads the research in the book by Reid would see that this is the true fact.

I just wonder how much attention this research would be given if it was a U.S. tanker that got him? We would probably never hear the end of it. Perhaps we Canadians do not celebrate our war actions enough, so it is probably our own fault that actions involving Canadians are largely ignored. But when you think about it, a Canadian seems to have been involved in a lot of famous actions: Australian or Canadian got the Red Baron, Canadian got Rommel, Canadian got Wittmann. We Canadians should celebrate these actions more.

I read the part in the book "No Holding Back" about Wittmann a little while ago and was very impressed. I have been researching WWII Panzer battles for many years now and most sources always stated that the Canadian tanks in the area were not in a position to engage Wittmann's Tigers on that day. This part of the book is very interesting to me, because the author proves with a pretty reasonable argument that the Canadians were in fact in the area and were in fact in a position to be able to engage the Tigers! I think this is very groundbreaking information and very well-done research on the part of Brian Reid!

This is excellent for Canadians too, being a Canadian I always kind of wanted the Canadian version to be true but it always looked like the evidence was against it. For Major Sidney Valpy Radley-Walters, Lieutenant Logan, Lieutenant Gould and the rest of the Sherbrooke Fusiliers Regiment this is such an achievement!

Thank you John for posting excellent additional information about this action!

Cheers,

Jon Fitzgerald
Calgary,AB,Canada

[sapper740]

Originally posted by Wolfkin
Hello John!

I noticed your post on the ML Forum and responded there as well. I also noticed that a lot of people seem to have the opinion that it does not matter who got Wittmann. For the most part, I disagree with the opinion that it does not matter who killed Michael Wittmann because for the sake of historical accuracy it does matter. Jon Fitzgerald
Calgary,AB,Canada

Couldn't agree more with your comment on the importance of historical accuracy and as a proud Canadian I would love for it to have been Canadians that knocked Wittman out, however, a very strong claim has been made that a Sherman Firefly from 3rd Platoon, A Squadron, 33rd Armoured Brigade of the First Northamptonshire Yeomanry destroyed Wittman's Tiger with two shots into the side at the fuel tank. I recently finished reading Hubert Meyer's book about the 12th SS which mentioned some of Wittman's exploits but mentioned nothing of his demise. Intrigued, I looked on-line for more info. I remember finding a forum discussing a book by Agte. Agte's book contained recollections of Hans Hofflinger who witnessed the battle and also contains transcripts of radio traffic describing the event. I have yet to read Agte's book myself but hope to read it in the near future to delve further into this matter. For now, I remain unconvinced of exactly who killed Wittman.


CHIMO!

[sapper740]

Originally posted by Wolfkin
Hello John!

Perhaps we Canadians do not celebrate our war actions enough, so it is probably our own fault that actions involving Canadians are largely ignored. But when you think about it, a Canadian seems to have been involved in a lot of famous actions: Australian or Canadian got the Red Baron, Canadian got Rommel, Canadian got Wittmann. We Canadians should celebrate these actions more.
Jon Fitzgerald
Calgary,AB,Canada

Truer words were never spoke! Canadians are known world wide as a self-effacing people, but damn it, every now and then we need to stand up, thump our chests, and proclaim to the world of our battle honours!!
One of my biggest bugbears is the German's claim that Richtofen was the greatest ace of WW I. Yes, Richtofen had the greatest number of CONFIRMED kills, but anyone who is a student of air combat knows how spurious Richtofen's claim is of being the ace with the greatest number of kills. The German pilots in WW I rarely ventured beyond No Mans Land, hence almost all of their claimed kills were confirmed by friendly troops on the ground. The Canadian pilots were made of sterner stuff and ventured far afield to find their foe ( a little alliteration there!) therefore had many kills that were never confirmed and not counted officially. Billy Bishop had many kills that were never counted, but if they were, his count would have far exceeded any other pilot who flew!


CHIMO!

[John McGillivray]

You should read Brian Reid’s book “No Holding Back” He looks at all of the claims and evidence, point by point, including the claims by 1NY and Patrick Agte’s book. There were five Tigers destroyed in that engagement, and it appears that Tpr Elkins of 1NY, got those commanded by Irion, Kisters and Dollinger; while SFR got Wittmann’s and Hoflinger’s.

As for WW1 aces, while Bishop was the Canadian with the highest score, another Canadian William Barker VC was by far the best pilot of the war. One factor that limited Barker’s score was that the big wigs of the Royal Flying Corps were always trying to post him back to England as a flying instructor.

Another point, if Gould is correct, then it would appear that Wittman was killed by an ordinary Sherman and not by a Firefly!

[Wolfkin]

Hello!

Thanks for the kind comments Sapper740! As John said it would be a good idea to get Reid's book if you can. Reid has done what no author has done yet. He looks at the battle itself, the terrain, the positions of all the forces, after-action reports and then paints a pretty accurate picture of what happened.

The British armour of the Northamptonshires could not have fired the shot that got Wittmann's Tiger because they were NE of him. The Canadian armour of the Sherbrookes however, were SW of Wittmann's Tiger. The shot that got his Tiger was fired from the Left Rear, that is from the SW.

It is a lot easier to read about it in the book and see everything that the author presents. I am sure you would not be disappointed in the book, it is a real great book!

Was it a normal Sherman and not a Sherman Firefly, John? I always thought that it was a Firefly version. Well now, it is even more impressive of an action now!

Cheers,

Jon Fitzgerald
Calgary,AB,Canada

[John McGillivray]

Originally posted by Wolfkin
Was it a normal Sherman and not a Sherman Firefly, John? I always thought that it was a Firefly version. Well now, it is even more impressive of an action now!

“A” Sqn of SFR had 12 tanks at Gaumesnil, of which two were Fireflys. Lt (later Capt) Gould stated that it was another Troop Commander (Lt Logan) who got Wittman. When the Regiment landed in Normandy on the 6th of June the Troop Commanders were using the Firefly tanks. However, by late June the squadrons were re-organized. One of the changes was that the Firefly was given to the Troop Sgt., with the Troop officer using an ordinary Sherman. So it is very unlikely that Logan would be using a Firefly on the 8th of August.

There are some interesting photos at the link below.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207...223%2C+Falaise

[Wolfkin]

Hello John!

I see, I was not too sure if the Troop Leaders used the Firefly in each Troop or not. Thank you for confirming whether they did or not! Thank you again for bringing some very important information about this action to our attention. Without your posts I would not even know about Lieutenant Logan or Lieutenant Gould. Also that link has excellent additional information on this topic, thanks for posting it!

Cheers,

Jon Fitzgerald
Calgary,AB,Canada