Sherman V CT150503 at Trois-Rivières, Québec

[luc désormeaux]

Original thread title: "Three-Rivers Regiment Sherman "Cathy""

Hi everyone,
I went to the 12th Canadian Armoured Regiment museum today and took the time to take some walkaround photos of the Sherman (Firefly ??) "Cathy" on display. Anybody interested ?? Anybody know somthing about this tank?
Here is some sample:

http://www.armorama.com/modules/phot...ATHY_FRONT.jpg

http://www.armorama.com/modules/phot...THY_INSIGN.jpg

http://www.armorama.com/modules/phot..._CATHY_TRR.jpg

[John McGillivray]

There is something funny about that “Firefly’. It still has the hull MG. This was normally removed and covered over by an armoured plate in the Firefly to increase the ammo storage. Also it has the early style of gun mantle which was not used on the Firefly. Last, it dose not have the armoured box at the back of the turret to house the radio.

Was this a conversion made by TRR in the field or is it a post-war mock up for the display? This looks like a very early version of the Sherman V but they stuck on the wrong type of gun. It should have a 75mm gun.

[Bob Potter]

Where is this museum? Two years ago on what started out as a War of 1812 trip to the Niagara peninsula, I discovered the rather good museum of the Lincoln and Welland Regiment. It may be time to do another trip north and I had better start assembling a list of Canadoian military museums. Wait, stop, has anyone done the Canadian equivalent of Terry Wise's Guide to Military Museums in the UK? Somebody up there want another job?

Besides I miss Tim-bits and the products of the Wellington brewery . . . . And, no, I am not a howling half-nekkid barbarian. I do NOT eat the Tim-bits while drinking the beer.
Although . . . .

Bob

[John McGillivray]

It is outside of the Armoury of the Reserve Battalion of the “Le 12eRBC(M) de Trois-Rivières” located in Trois Rivières, Quebec.

Here is a link to their web site.

http://www.12rbc.ca/troisriviere.htm

Here is a photo of an early Sherman V (M4A4) with the correct 75mm gun. It looks like someone just welded a 17pdr barrel onto the gun mantle of the Three Rivers Sherman along with a support bracket to carry the weight.

Is CT150503 the original WD number?

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

You're right, John, CATHY is not a Firefly. It's a standard early M4A4 which has had a 17 pdr barrel welded to its mantlet (who knows why). I'll bet CATHY never left the country, but the museum curator could tell us more, I'm sure.

I'm also sure Hanno could add some info to this discussion.

[chris vickery]

Bob, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the consumption of Timbits and beer. Maybe it's just me, but as a "true Canadian", usually beer is good with everything...

[luc désormeaux]

Hi guys,
I was pretty sure on that one. When i took those pics, i have a doubt it was a Firefly, many clues was there to tell it. As i lived 30 min from the 12ieme RBC, i will try to contact the curator.
I took around 45 walkaround pics of "Cathy" and at some place on the side hull you can see some damage (from shrapnel ??):
Is it possible it took part in some operation ??

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by chris vickery
... Maybe it's just me, but as a "true Canadian", usually beer is good with everything...

Especially with bacon, eggs, pancakes, maple syrup and pork 'n beans, early in the morning...

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by luc désormeaux
Is it possible it took part in some operation ??

Possible, yes, Luc... but it also could have been pulled off a tank or artillery range someplace here, as well. Go find out what you can, and report back!

[John McGillivray]

Hello Geoff,

I don't think that this Sherman was just pulled off of some range here in Canada. As far as I know, the M4A4 were never used in Canada, so this one must have been brought back from Europe. Maybe it saw service with TRR in Italy? Can someone look into the WD number CT150503 to see if it is the original?

But why the 17 pdr barrel????

John

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
I'm also sure Hanno could add some info to this discussion.

This Sherman was discussed on the Sherman Register mailing list two years ago, triggered by a load of pictures sent in by Pat Bernier - see Sherman Register mailing list > Files > Surviving_Shermans > Canada > Trois-Rivieres_Quebec. It transpired the Sherman on display at Trois-Rivières, Québec, Canada, is Sherman V (M4A4) CT150503, one of four "war throphy" Shermans shipped from Europe to Canada after WW2 - see the thread "FYI on Cdn. War Trophies" on the Old MLU Forum.
So yes, it's unique!
But why the 17-pdr gun? I have no idea when or why the 17-pdr barrel was fitted into the M34 mantlet.

Luc, if possible it would be worthwile to find out if it is merely a barrel stuck to the mantlet, or if it is actually a proper gun fitted in the mount. Also, knowing the serial number would be great as this could be one of the oldest surviving M4A4's! Click here for information on where to find serial numbers on Sherman tanks.

Well, did I live up to your expectations, Sunray, Sir?
Hanno

[luc désormeaux]

Hi Hanno,
About the serial number location, i copy here quotes from the sherman registry:"The vehicle serial is stamped on each boss to which the towing shackle is attached"
What it mean by "boss" ?
Sorry about that but my english is not that good...

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Exceeded, as usual, Mr. Spoelstra. When one needs an expert opinion, one consults an expert.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by luc désormeaux
"The vehicle serial is stamped on each boss to which the towing shackle is attached"
What it mean by "boss" ?

Luc,

It is this thing - I hope you recognise it!

Source: Sherman serial numbers

Isn't it awkward that as non-native speakers we try to commuincate in English - so, how's your Dutch?

Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Exceeded, as usual, Mr. Spoelstra.

Thank you, sir! Glad to be here, proud to serve

[luc désormeaux]

Hi guys,
I bring back this old tread as I made a another visit today to the regiment museum. I was able to talk with he museum curator about "CATHY", here's what he told me : This Sherman is not a real Firefly..At the time, 4 shermans were brought back from Europe to be use as war trophy and one of them was for the Three Rivers Regiment. He told me that the Sherman had no gun barrel when it arrive. So they had a barrel fitted to the turret. The name "CATHY" is in fact the name of an officer's wife. The Three Rivers Regiment never have a Sherman named "CATHY" in service.

This clear up the mystery !

[servicepub (RIP)]

One of the 4 trophies was Forceful III which belonged to the 21st CAR (GGFG). This tank sat outside of the Cartier Square Drill Hall for several years until it was given to the new CWM.
Here is a photo that I found at Archives. Forceful III is shown stored at a hangar at Borden. From the clothing I would suspect 1950s. Note that the barrel is plugged and a chalk marking on the side states "Not to be stowed on deck".

http://www.servicepub.com/images/dsc03215.jpg

[sapper740]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Especially with bacon, eggs, pancakes, maple syrup and pork 'n beans, early in the morning...

and don't forget salmon, venison, poutine, cod's cheeks, gooeyducks, .....

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by sapper740
and don't forget salmon, venison, poutine, cod's cheeks, gooeyducks, .....

Now now, let's not get disgusting here...

[Gunner]

Don't forget the Beaver Tails!!!



Mike

[maple_leaf_eh]

Is there a smart person who can find the document mentioned earlier about Trophy Tanks? My Internet Wayback Machine search comes up blank.

[Colin Alford]

Terry,

I may not qualify as a smart person, but here are some links that may be of interest:

Start of CMHQ file 1/War Trophy/1:
https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...96/589?r=0&s=1

One of the many documents that specifically deals with CT150503:
https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...96/687?r=0&s=1

End of CMHQ file 1/War Trophy/1: https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...96/755?r=0&s=3

Happy reading!

[maple_leaf_eh]

I went to the end of the last URL, and pecked backwards. Messages on file make specific mention of "Marion", which I recognize as a Kangaroo name used on the Canadian War Museum's rebuild, was not to return to Canada.

So far I've seen well known names including "Forceful", "Bomb", and "Holy Roller". Other tanks are mentioned by census number, including a Stuart to the Lincoln and Welland, and a few which apparently survived from England to Holland. Whether these were DDay tanks like Bomb is to be researched. I just have to determine when those units arrived in Normandy.

[Colin Alford]

Gents,

Despite having read through 1/War Trophy/1 numerous times, I have only just noticed a significant discrepancy regarding "Cathy".

The documents state that CT150503 was a 22 CAR (Canadian Grenadier Guards) tank, not a 12 CAR (Three Rivers Regiment) tank.

Can anyone find close-up images of the plaque in front of "Cathy" to read the full inscription?

I also found this: https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remem...s/details/7102

Has the actual regiment that operated this tank been forgotten through the passage of time?

I will also note that the service history of "FORCEFUL" was forgotten for a number of years (late 1940s to 1980s) when it was in Borden prior to heading back to GGFG (displayed at Cartier Square Drill Hall, then CWM).

It seems that some additional research is required.

[Colin Alford]

The plot thickens,

The Montreal Gazette, 16 January 1946, page 7 of the scan (page 8 of the paper), slightly right of centre, “Tale of a Tank”:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?n...rontpage&hl=en

The article seems to clearly identify CT 150503 as “Ginny” belonging to 22 CAR.

[Colin Alford]

Apparently The ‘52 Natural’ was the Regimental Newspaper of the Canadian Grenadier Guards.

It seems that the 16 Jan 1946 Montreal Gazette article was condensed from an 11 Jul 1945 ‘52 Natural’ article: https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...30/959?r=0&s=2

See attached.

[Bob Phillips]

Colin, absolutely a wealth of information. One only appreciates the massive job the selecting and returning war trophies turns into, when you read through the pages and pages of war materials to be considered. Do you know if there is a published list of the collection at the Cdn War Museum? It would be interesting to see how much material made it and how much was actually saved.

[maple_leaf_eh]

The documents at LAC describe a battle for the regiments to identify, explain and justify their trophy vehicles, all the while demobilizing and sending guys home. The loss of corporate knowledge was significant. At the same time, the big Army was reluctant to approve very many pieces to come back to Canada. It was a rationalization that forced less important pieces to be abandoned.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Colin Alford

Despite having read through 1/War Trophy/1 numerous times, I have only just noticed a significant discrepancy regarding "Cathy".

The documents state that CT150503 was a 22 CAR (Canadian Grenadier Guards) tank, not a 12 CAR (Three Rivers Regiment) tank.

Can anyone find close-up images of the plaque in front of "Cathy" to read the full inscription?

Apologies for picking up on you great detective work so late, Colin.

Tony Viste digged up a file listing T 150503 being in service with 3 Squadron of the 22 Cdn Armd Regt, ref. http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=12768

The files you refer to also show that the Sherman V CT150503 served with the 22 CAR and was to be sent back as a trophy. They wanted to bring home two tanks: CT232254 a 17-pdr Sherman, and CT150503 a 75-mm Sherman. Brigadier Macklin deemed it was "extravagant to allow any one regiment to take home two tanks". I do not know who and why choose to bring home CT150503 and leave behind CT232254.

I wonder who changed CT 150503's name from Ginny to Cathy? Maybe this was done when it was retrofitted with a 17-pdr gun? Did anyone want it to look like CT 232254? Was CT-232254 named Cathy originally?

Additional research is required indeed.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

From: https://www.silverhawkauthor.com/pos...anada-6-quebec

M4A4 Sherman Firefly VC 17-pounder Monument 12e RBC. This M4A4 is reported to have served with the Three Rivers Regiment in Sicily, Italy, and in the Netherlands during the Second World War. It was returned to Canada as a "War Trophy," and is on display as a monument in Trois Riviers, Quebec. Its original 75-mm gun has been replaced with a 17-pounder anti-tank gun. The tank's original Serial Number is 5235, indicating it was accepted in Sep 1942. The bullet splash plates on this tank are welded onto the air intake grill.
CFR No. WD CT150503, “Cathy”.

(Author Photos, 4 Apr 2012)