Oxford Carriers

Neil Ashley · #1 21-09-04, 18:42

In a previous thread started by Keith Webb entitled 'Guess what this is', Hanno Spoelstra suggested that some Oxford Carriers had seen service before the end of the war.

He included a reference from Art Johnson refering to the Canadian 25th Brigade and a link which no longer works.

Do any war-time photographs exist showing these vehicles on active service?

As for survivors which was also discussed, I can think of 4 vehicles.

Hanno Spoelstra · #2 21-09-04, 22:07

The link to the old forum on network54.com no longer seems to work, try finding the message in the MLU Forum Archives. Art Johnson's reference to them was to post-war use in occupied Germany.

Personally I don't think they were actually used in combat during WW2.

The survivors I know about are located in China and the UK. Where are the other two you know of located?

Quote:

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra in Guess where this is...
Built in 1944 only a few saw service, most were used after the war. Art Johnson told us a while ago the Canadian 25th Brigade in Europe used Oxfords to tow 17 pdrs.
There is at least another survivor, I saw it in the metal some ten years ago but did not fully realise what it was...

Neil Ashley · #3 22-09-04, 09:18

Hanno

Sorry for any misunderstanding over what you were suggesting. If the link had worked my assumption that the Canadian use was war time would have been disproved.

The survivors I know of are as follows;-

The Bovington Tank Museum.
The example in China.
Two owned privately by Bill Banister in the UK.

One of Bill Banisters is the ex Warminster Small Arms Collection Vehicle. My information on Bill's vehicles is about 7 years old but I assume he still has them.

Both the Bovington and Warminster vehicles were subject to automotive trials later in there lives and are therefore not 100% original.

Do you know of any others?

#4 22-09-04, 10:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Personally I don't think they were actually used in combat during WW2.

Rolls-Royce records show they were using the CT24 and CT25 carriers as a test bed for the prototype B Range engines that became almost standardised power units in the 50s and 60s.

The engine project start date is hazy but commentators suggest as early as 1940, but whatever by late 43 or early 44 the RR chief Engineer had a trial engine in a UC and some "Oxfords".

In fact various pre-production B Range engine variants were fitted into all manner of existing trucks from the mid 40s onwards and everything was supplied for troop trials which may well have included off-shore usage.

It is possible but unproveable that at a late stage some Oxford carriers, with test engines, were used in European areas for troop trials but unintended for "combat" applications. However, when needs must, anything might have happened.

As an aside, RR notes suggest such things as the CS8 were trial fitted with the 165bhp B80 prototypes and one wonders how lethal this truck might have been with this amount of power when its original 50bhp is generally often adequate to overawe its steering and brakes.

Similarly, around a 80% power increase in a UC must have made it quite exciting and possibly rather mechanically tender too.

R.

Hanno Spoelstra · #5 22-09-04, 11:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Neil Ashley
Sorry for any misunderstanding over what you were suggesting. If the link had worked my assumption that the Canadian use was war time would have been disproved.

Neil, sorry for confusing you. Carrier expert Nigel Watson writes about the Oxford: "Built in 1944 only a few saw service". In service could mean being used for training or as a test-bed (see Richard's remarks) - I still think it is unlikely any saw combat service.

Quote:

My information on Bill's vehicles is about 7 years old but I assume he still has them.

I saw one of Bill Banister's Oxfords in the early nineties when I went there with a friend to buy his Ram Kangaroo. I did not realise what it was really so I did not take any pictures.

H.

Gunner · #6 22-09-04, 22:17

Hi Guys:

The Swords and Ploughshares Museum has what we believe to be the only example of the Cambridge Carrier that was exported to Canada.

It is the Artillery OP version and was shipped over for trials. Unfortunately the transmission is trash and the upper armour is all gone. We hope someday to replicate the armour and may have to put in a North American transmission and engine in order to get it going.

For those not familiar with it, the Cambridge was the next step from the Oxford to the FV432. It looks like a short 432 (only four roadwheels) with the B80 engine in the back.

Once I find some photos I'll post them.

Cheers, Mike

Hanno Spoelstra · #7 05-10-04, 22:52

From AFV News Discussion Board:

Quote:

Tim Royall
Date: Tues-Oct-5-04 at 04:03 hr

In Response To: Re: oxford carrier (Hanno Spoelstra)

Hi Hanno,

Some time ago I did some research on the Oxford and Cambridge carriers and also visited the private ones. The Oxford definitely didn't see service in WW2.

Part of my article is below:

The RA expected six prototypes for trials in late 1944 but by December supply problems with the Cadillac engines had delayed production and the RA were told to look on the CT20 as a long term project with the Windsor Carrier taking over the role as an Armd.OP for Infantry Divisions until the mid 1950's. Trials carried out between then and July 1945 also showed up defects in the suspension that further delayed production and user trials. At this stage a production run of over 400 vehicles with the Cadillac engine was envisaged with further long term production planned using a British engine of around 180 bhp and the possibility of incorporating overhead cover.

However the end of the War brought about a harsh review of all vehicle projects. Production was severely curtailed but CT20 continued to take place in several trials. In July 1946 it was demonstrated at the high profile "Exhibition of German and other vehicles and equipment" at Chertsey where it was seen as the future. It was described as "the latest type of British Carrier; its welded hull is much more spacious than that of the Universal Carrier. It employs "Cletrac" steering and a four speed hydromatic gearbox in conjunction with a 2-speed and reverse auxiliary box. The engine is a Cadilac V8 developing 110 bhp". It also took part in a suspension demonstration against a Coventry armoured car and a German 8 wheeled armoured car with unrecorded results.

Change continued at an alarming rate due to the conflicting demands of post-war reductions and the development of the Cold War. Between August and November 1946 CT20 was used by the RA as a trials vehicle for a further development, the CT25. This was a later version of the CT20 with a Rolls-Royce engine and improved suspension to take the weight of overhead cover which was not possible on CT20. A mock up of the fighting compartment was also built on an Alecto chassis for design approval before FVDD Chobham produced a mock up on the new CT25 chassis. However by 1946 Vickers were developing a new family of light vehicles called CT26. The RA felt that this was too bulky to be an OP vehicle and too small to be a GPO vehicle but in February 1946 the War Office decided that all future field and medium SP guns were to be mounted on this chassis and therefore their associated vehicles. By September the RAC had changed their mind in favour of what was to become the FV300 series and so the RA also agreed to this series. Little else is known about the CT20/25 series from the RA point of view although the Oxford Carrier served on with the Infantry in various roles including that of a A/T gun tower and even saw service in Korea.

Tim published this in the Royal Artillery Journal as part of an article on the history of the Armoured OP vehicle and also formed part of an article he did for Tracklink (Bovington Magazine) on the Oxford and Cambridge carriers. It was based on material gathered from the library at the School of Artillery in the UK.

Petrus · #8 12-10-04, 19:02

Try looking at http://oldcmp.net/oxford2.html. Over there is an article on the Oxford carrier that was being used by the Australian army after WW2.

Here is a picture of the vehicle in a 6-pdr AT gun tractor configuration:

and an Oxford carrier towing a BAT recoilless gun:

Best regards,
Piotr

Hanno Spoelstra · #9 30-11-04, 21:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Art Johnson told us a while ago the Canadian 25th Brigade in Europe used Oxfords to tow 17 pdrs.

Correct link reads: 6 pdr service.

H.

Petrus · #10 30-11-04, 21:50

I have just found another picture of the Oxford carrier. Here it is

Best regards,
Petrus

Hanno Spoelstra · #11 30-11-04, 22:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Petrus
I have just found another picture

Petrus, could you please quote the source?

Thanks,
Hanno

Petrus · #12 01-12-04, 09:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Petrus, could you please quote the source?

Certainly I can.
The Oxford on an museum display may be seen at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56357, which is the Axis History Forum. That picture of the Oxford with the BAT recoilless gun comes from http://homepage.mac.com/barrybloke/lightning.html.

And here is another photo of what I suppose might be the Oxford carrier:

For the picture seems rather unclear I am not sure if it actually shows the Oxford (undoubtly the vehicle is towing a 17-pdr AT gun).

Please take a look at what is in this picture's background (I think it could be the Oxford as well):

Perhaps you can identify this?

What is intriguing the author of the text at http://users.chariot.net.au/~jahill/army1.htm says that when, in the beginning of the 1950s, he served with the Grenadier Guards the battalion's anti-tank platoon was equipped with the 17-pounders and turretless Stuart light tanks (he calls them "Stuart Gun Towers") as the guns' tractors not the Oxfords whatsoever.

In this picture beyond any doubt is a turretless Stuart:

Best regards,
Piotr

Hanno Spoelstra · #13 02-12-04, 14:43

Piotr,

Quote:

Originally posted by Petrus
The Oxford on an museum display may be seen at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56357, which is the Axis History Forum.

Ah, I see - you put it in your Photobucket after you found it there.

Quote:

That picture of the Oxford with the BAT recoilless gun comes from http://homepage.mac.com/barrybloke/lightning.html.

Thanks, seen that one before.

Quote:

For the picture seems rather unclear I am not sure if it actually shows the Oxford (undoubtly the vehicle is towing a 17-pdr AT gun).

Please take a look at what is in this picture's background (I think it could be the Oxford as well):

Perhaps you can identify this?

Yes, both are Oxford Carriers.

Quote:

What is intriguing the author of the text at http://users.chariot.net.au/~jahill/army1.htm says that when, in the beginning of the 1950s, he served with the Grenadier Guards the battalion's anti-tank platoon was equipped with the 17-pounders and turretless Stuart light tanks (he calls them "Stuart Gun Towers") as the guns' tractors not the Oxfords whatsoever.

No doubt the Stuart 17-pdr Gun Tower was the most numerous tracked 17-pdr tractor after WW2, many were converted end kept in service for quite a long time. In fact, a good number of the surviving Stuart M5A1 tanks today are ex-towers.

According to Tim Royall's research the future of the Oxford was dead-ended when the War Office decided that all future field and medium SP guns were to be mounted on the CT25 chassis, a further development of the CT20 Oxford. When the RAC had changed their mind in favour of what was to become the FV300 series and the RA also agreed to this series, the fate of the Oxford was sealed. However, the Oxford Carrier served on with the Infantry in various roles including that of a A/T gun tower, but my guess is this was only done to make best use of what was already produced (like the case of the Stuart gun tower).

Hanno

david green · #14 02-12-04, 23:11

hi every one, im new here.
i have some pics of the oxford carrier in germany around balsen.
they are by my dad how was in the kings royal light infantry.
hope you like them.
dave

Hanno Spoelstra · #15 03-12-04, 10:06

Quote:

Originally posted by david green
i have some pics of the oxford carrier in germany around balsen.
they are by my dad how was in the kings royal light infantry.
hope you like them.

Dave,

Welcome the the forum - and what an entry you've made.
Do you have any further info/pictures of your dad and his Oxford carrier? Would love to see more!

Thanks,
Hanno

Petrus · #16 03-12-04, 12:33

Quote:

i have some pics of the oxford carrier in germany

It would be great if you let us see them.

By the way, as far as I know the Royal Ulster Rifles had the Oxford carriers with them in Korea, I suppose that so did other British units there. I cannot understand why there is so few pictures of them available on the Internet. Perhaps someone here does have some?

Piotr

david green · #17 03-12-04, 20:23

thanks for the reply every one.
here are the rest of the pics and there are some more on the way as cliff in the last pic is down under on hol at the mo for two weeks. so when i see him i will get the rest of the pic for you.
the pics are from 1952-54 on the zone at dortmand they had 17 oxford carriers between balsn and dortmand but if they had to go to berlin the had to only go by 3t bedfords as the rusians did not like the british using oxford carriers and 17pdr's and tanks moveing around them as it used to keep them going mad.

david green · #18 03-12-04, 20:25

17 pdr guns at dortmand

oxford carrier

david green · #19 03-12-04, 20:30

my dad is top left. i hope that you like the pics.
all the best dave

Mark W. Tonner · #20 03-12-04, 22:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Petrus
It would be great if you let us see them.

By the way, as far as I know the Royal Ulster Rifles had the Oxford carriers with them in Korea, I suppose that so did other British units there. I cannot understand why there is so few pictures of them available on the Internet. Perhaps someone here does have some?

Piotr

Piotr;

An Oxford carrier of the 1st Battalion, The Royal Ulster Rifles being ferried across the Imjin River, Korea.

(Source: THE ROYAL ULSTER RIFLES IN KOREA)

Cheers

Petrus · #21 04-12-04, 15:03

Thanks a lot, Mark.

Piotr

Petrus · #22 08-12-04, 12:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Gunner
For those not familiar with it, the Cambridge was the next step from the Oxford to the FV432. It looks like a short 432 (only four roadwheels) with the B80 engine in the back.

What about the Cambridge carrier?
Piotr

Gunner · #23 14-02-05, 23:11

Hi Petrus:

I'm not sure I understand your question. Could you rephrase it?

We have a Cambridge Carrier at the Swords and Ploughshares Museum near Ottawa, Canada as I described in my earlier post. We would love to learn more about it as we intend to restre it someday (money and time permitting!)

Sorry for the delayed response, I've been away for two months living under the ocean (scuba diving!)

Cheers! Mike

Hanno Spoelstra · #24 02-03-05, 23:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Gunner
Once I find some photos I'll post them.

Got any more, Mike?

Source: http://www.calnan.com/swords/tour/tourpage08.html

Gunner · #25 03-03-05, 22:35

Hi Hanno:

I'll see what I can dig up this weekend. I'll send to you to post if that's OK.

Cheers! Mike

Hanno Spoelstra · #26 14-08-05, 13:34

Pictures of the Oxford at the Army Museum at Beijing, China, courtesy of Richard Stephenson, and hosted by the G503 Album.

Enjoy!
Hanno

Hanno Spoelstra · #27 14-08-05, 13:35

The WD no. T352713 could well be original.

Hanno Spoelstra · #28 14-08-05, 13:35

It is locally known as the "The Canadian UC-F1 Light Caterpillar Tractor" (!)

Hanno Spoelstra · #29 25-09-05, 22:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Gunner
For those not familiar with it, the Cambridge was the next step from the Oxford to the FV432. It looks like a short 432 (only four roadwheels) with the B80 engine in the back.

Click here to see a picture of a rare survivor at the Bovington tank museum.

H.

#30 25-09-05, 22:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
. . . . .to see a picture of a rare survivor at the Bovington tank museum.

Of course Bovvy keep this example hidden away, pity really as its one step removed from the 432 which has shown itself to be very sucessful to the extent of a re-engine, re-transmission, re-life program.

The tracks are quite different to the 432 but the sprockets and road wheels would seem to have stayed as is; road wheels I'm getting very familiar with since a club member is steadily having all his spares and in-use wheels blasted. . . . . . . . . . .

Whatever the army used as a sand coloured primer is very good, very good indeed

R.