Identification

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Hi guys,

Identification time again. The attachment is an extract of a large pic sent to me from Holland. Explanation:

.....made in 1945 at Hilversum in front of a school; the Ruysdaelschool, showing 155 Canadian Soldiers....

The sender of this email was four years old at the time. They'd like to have a unit identification. Can you help?

[Bill Alexander]

With a quick look and to get things started, the patches appear to be 3rd Div, and the badges could be Canadian Scottish or Stormont Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders. The shoulder titles (what I can see of it), appear to be Canadian Scottish.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
They'd like to have a unit identification.

Hi Geoff;

I would say that they are Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders (9th Inf Bde, 3rd Inf Div). Compare the cap badge and tartan backing in the attached image.

Cheers

[Bill Alexander]

Mark I thought the same, but the combination of insignia may make them the Canadian Scottish. The cap badges have a similar shape, but the shoulder titles for the SD&G are quite dark in comparison to those worn by the Scottish. As well in the image the shape of the shoulder title seems to be consistent with the Scots. I will have a look in the regimental histories when I get a chance to see if either unit was in that location. (image from Canuck site).

Hi ... the soldiers capbadge seems longer/narrower than the one you posted Bill. At least to my eyes it does ... Mark's posted badge seems more likely due to the narrowness/length compare better with the soldiers badge, even though details don't show? Your badge looks "fatter and shorter""

That's just my 2-cents worth from the pea-NUT gallery Ma

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Bill Alexander
Mark I thought the same, but the combination of insignia may make them the Canadian Scottish. The cap badges have a similar shape, but the shoulder titles for the SD&G are quite dark in comparison to those worn by the Scottish. As well in the image the shape of the shoulder title seems to be consistent with the Scots. I will have a look in the regimental histories when I get a chance to see if either unit was in that location.

Hi Bill;

If you look at the tartan backing (Geoff's pic (circled in red)), the visible points of the tartan backing are at 12, 3, 6 and 9 o'clock (re: my posted image of the SD&G cap badge), and form a "+" behind the cap badge.

If you look at the attached image below of the Can Scots cap badge with tartan backing, you'll see that the visible points of the tartan backing are at 1, 5, 7 and 11 o'clock, and form an "X" behind the cap badge.

So far, I haven't found any reference to Hilversum in the Can Scots history.

Cheers

... so the exact-unique placing of the badge on the "specifically positioned pattern of the tartan" is also important? If so, then this does make it easier then to identify, especially in old black-n-white photos.

I wonder what the signifigance of placement and positioning are? Symbolic or identification purposes? Both?

Karmen

[John McGillivray]

This is from “Up the Glens : the Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders, 1783-1994” by William Boss.

“The battalion moved from Emden on the 16th of May for Appeldoorn, by way of Groningen and Deventer. Another move on the 19th took the Glens to Hilversum, where, with the Pipe Band leading, the battalion marched into the town led by Lieutenant-Colonel Gemmell. A victory parade at The Hague, voting for the Federal Elections, presentation of medals at Maple Leaf Stadium, and lectures on rehabilitation relieved the routine duties. The Salvation Army had moving picture shows frequently and a good ENSA show played at the Grand Theatre. On the 27th of May the Roman Catholics attended mass at St. Clemens Church while the Protestants went to Dupendal Church. Captain J.P. Donihee was chosen for the important appointment of Unit Sports Officer.

“Early in June the battalion paraded to Maple Leaf Stadium where a group picture was taken. On the 6th, the anniversary of D-Day, when Hilversum was en fete and a flag was on every house, the Glens marched in the parade at Utrecht.

“Many members of the battalion volunteered for service with the Canadian Far East Force and for the Canadian Occupation Force. There was no training syllabus for the companies and training now consisted mainly of sports, lectures and route marching. On the 14th of June the unit moved to a camp at Elspeet, between Appeldoorn and Utrecht, and the men were genuinely sorry to leave the friendly town of Hilversum.”

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
... so the exact-unique placing of the badge on the "specifically positioned pattern of the tartan" is also important? If so, then this does make it easier then to identify, especially in old black-n-white photos.

I wonder what the signifigance of placement and positioning are? Symbolic or identification purposes? Both?

Karmen

Karmen,

Just check the swatch & badge on my HLI tam on the bookshelf... all tartans are different, some more so than others. The swatches such as we see here are carefully oriented according to the traditions of the pattern. I believe Mark is right in his assessment - as you are in your judgement of proportion - but I'd like some confirmation that the SD&Gs were indeed in Hilversum.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Thanks, I think you've got it!

Geoff

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Karmen,

Just check the swatch & badge on my HLI tam on the bookshelf... all tartans are different, some more so than others. The swatches such as we see here are carefully oriented according to the traditions of the pattern. I believe Mark is right in his assessment - as you are in your judgement of proportion - but I'd like some confirmation that the SD&Gs were indeed in Hilversum.

...ask and ye shall receive ... (the answers) MLU ... what a great place!

I know the tartans are different ... but that was about all I knew ... I'll have a look at the capbadge on your Tam ... thanks Sunray.

PS: Tasha is running around the room with her demanding crying, "Here fishy fishy ... " ...

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Hi guys,

Identification time again. The attachment is an extract of a large pic sent to me from Holland. Explanation:

.....made in 1945 at Hilversum in front of a school; the Ruysdaelschool, showing 155 Canadian Soldiers....

The sender of this email was four years old at the time. They'd like to have a unit identification. Can you help?

Geoff;

This picture might be post war (5 May +), Hilversum was in the I Cdn Corps area of operations. That being said, Geoff could you post another 'extract' from the larger picture, the 'troops' photographed could be a 'mixed bag', although, I agree with Bill, the picture you have posted, is of Highland/Scottish troops of the Cdn 3rd Inf Div.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Geoff;

This picture might be post war (5 May +), Hilversum was in the I Cdn Corps area of operations. That being said, Geoff could you post another 'extract' from the larger picture, the 'troops' photographed could be a 'mixed bag', although, I agree with Bill, the picture you have posted, is of Highland/Scottish troops of the Cdn 3rd Inf Div.

Cheers

SUNRAY, cancel my last (above), John came up with the proper ID.

Cheers

[Bill Alexander]

Checking Up the Glens, the regimental history of the SD&G's, it reports that the unit paraded in Hilversum on May 19th 1945.
The titles that can be seen on the uniforms may be Glengarrians / Canada, but it is really difficult to see.
As a matter of interest, what is the differnece in the tam versus the glengarry as headdress? Eg who wore what when? In going through the Glenns history, there are many images of soldiers wearing both the glenns and the tams in the same picture.

[Bill Alexander]

I think we may all have posted as the same time.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Thank you lads, again. I will so advise my Dutch contact accordingly.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Bill Alexander
As a matter of interest, what is the differnece in the tam versus the glengarry as headdress? Eg who wore what when? In going through the Glenns history, there are many images of soldiers wearing both the glenns and the tams in the same picture.

Hi Bill;

When you get a chance, could you post a pic from the Glenns history, I think I may have an answer, but would like to see a pic first.

Cheers

[John McGillivray]

In the city of Emden, Germany, 6 May 1945. Outside the Command Post.

Top – Sergeant More (Brigade Signaller)
Center – Lieutenant Colonel N.M. Gemmell, Lieutenant J.C. Kirby, Major J.G. Stothart
Front – M.D. Benton, E.A. Northcott, M.E. Walsh

[John McGillivray]

The Regimental Aid Post staff. 25 December 1944.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

I'll send you guys a scan of the photo originally forwarded to me. Stand by...

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
I'll send you guys a scan of the photo originally forwarded to me. Stand by...

Thanks Geoff, I'll have to take a look to see if maybe my Uncle is in this picture, he served with the SD&G.

Cheers

[Wigger K. F. van der Horst]

Hello there oever-the-ocean-Canada! I was the one, the troublemaker, your "tormentor" from the Netherlands. Thanks to you all, at last, I reached my goal after so many years: the name of the Army-unit, photographed at Hilversum in front of the Ruysdaelschool. So, we can say: "also today you all are still irreplaceable!" For sure you did all a great job!
From April 28th til May 10th, we commemorate and cellebrate the liberation of the Netherlands. As far we know today a lot of Canadian Veterans will visit our country. Here in Apeldoorn we welcome our Canadian guests in the CanadianClub. There's also a messageboard which shows the photo of the 155 Canadian Soldiers full size: 80 cm wide. Also to find at the informationdesk is a showmap with passport photo's of each individual Soldier in the size 4,5 x 6 cm. Maybe, just maybe, one or some soldiers will be recognized from the picture . . . The pictures is part of our family photo-album and has it's own story, because two of the soldiers were part of the family during some time. My family still celebrates our liberation every year, beause it's important to realize, not only the Canadian Soldiers that survived the war are our liberators, but also those who died for our freedom. In fact: I can write this note today because they liberated the Netherlands!
With kind regards,
Wigger K. F. van der Horst

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

You're very welcome here, Wigger! We do what we can for the same reasons you said. This is a diverse, international community dedicated to the same principles. We thank you for your acknowledgement and hope to see you here more often!

Geoff

[Bill Alexander]

Wigger, thanks for asking about the photo. This spring will be a special spring. With the 60th anniversary of Liberation, it is a long time ago that the soldiers posed in front of the school. It was a special time and it is great that the Dutch take such care to remember the victory.
To follow up on my question about headdress, John posted the images from the Glenn's history. The glenn and the tam seemed to be worn together. However in the group picture of the SD&G in Hilversum all the unit is wearing tams. Was there a change in dress regs? Or was the tam easier to obtain in comparison with the glenns? Odd that the headdress would be so mixed. (And, I had thought that there was some significance between Scottish units wearing the tam versus the glen.)

[Wigger K. F. van der Horst]

I have less knowledge about the head-dress of the Canadian soldiers. In fact I only thought till before one week ago, the head-dress in time of peace was the one as showed in the picture. Now I realize that Highlanders wear on special occasions a special head-dress. I have seen it yesterday on a two hours video-movie on DVD of the Canadian Veterans that visit our country in 1995. It's clear to me there is also an official head-dress. When you look at the picture you can see it's beautiful organized in lines. To get so many soldiers with ONE SMILE on a picture, shows that the photographer was an outstanding producer. When that's the case, it's possible he decided for a picture with uniformity in stead of a mix of head-dresses. Could that be the right answer?

[Wigger K. F. van der Horst]

There's some research done this morning. From the original picture you see here the badge in three different ways again.
Also I measured the size of the Canadian Scottish- and SD&G's.
For both badges are measured with the same width: 5 cm.

The width and height of the Candian Scottish is 5 x 5,6 cm;
The width and height of the SD&G's is 5 x 6,1 cm, a difference of 5 mm in height.

When you put them in perpective, the SD&G looks more narrow.

Is it possible, in some family photo albums is the same picture? How do Canadians think about saving old pictures and letters e.s.o.? Maybe it depends on the fact how the Candian Soldiers experienced the war all over. Example: my father in law, was picked up during a "razzia" at Apeldoorn in 1944 and was during some time at kamp Rees, a city just over the Dutch border. He escaped some weeks later with other prisoners. Because he weared wooden shoes (the famous Dutch "klompen"), he said to them: "I make a lot of noise and I can't walk as fast as you do. So, go ahead and I go my own way. Which he did. The problem was the river IJssel. Near Zutphen, the underground took him accross the river IJssel. I spoke once with him about this event and it was a for him very difficult to tell. He spoke no word about it since than. He never read books or looked television programs about the war. So, a bad experience during wartime can change a lot in life and attitude about the small items which bring back memories about these times, like pictures and letters.

[Wigger K. F. van der Horst]

Detail badge two

[Wigger K. F. van der Horst]

Detail badge one

[Wigger K. F. van der Horst]

The SD&G-badge in perspective.

[Wigger K. F. van der Horst]

The Canadian Scottish-badge in perspective.

Are you all still "in balance" after this badge-parade?