MLU FORUM  

Go Back   MLU FORUM > MILITARY VEHICLES > The Armour Forum

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-10-05, 01:38
Wolfkin Wolfkin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Calgary,AB,Canada
Posts: 42
Default Armour In Operation Spring

I have been researching Operation Spring and have been trying to get a good idea of what Armoured units were involved on both sides. I have run into some contradictory information in some sources so I am trying to paint a good picture myself with the information that I do have available. Here is what I have so far:

Canadian units:

-First Hussars (6th Armoured Regiment): A Squadron supports the RHLI, B Squadron supports the Black Watch, C Squadron supports the RROC.

-Fort Garry Horse (10th Armoured Regiment): B Squadron supports the NNSH.

British units:

-1st Battalion Royal Tank Regiment: Advances along the Verrieres-Bourguebus ridge West of Verrieres.

-4th County Of London Yeomanry: Advances along the Verrieres-Bourguebus ridge West of Verrieres.

German units:

-I./SS Panzer Regiment 1 Leibstandarte of the 1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte: Operating in the areas between Rocquancourt and Fontenay le Marmion. But this is unsure as of now.

-II./SS Panzer Regiment 1 Leibstandarte of the 1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte: Holding the areas of Verrieres and Tilly la Campagne. Also operating in the areas between Rocquancourt and Fontenay le Marmion.

-SS Sturmgeschutze Abteilung 1 of the 1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte: Operating in the areas of Verrieres, Tilly la Campagne, Rocquancourt and Fontenay le Marmion.

-sSSPzAbt 101 formerly of the 1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte now an independent Abteilung: Operating near the Garcelles-Secqueville area as well as the areas of Rocquancourt and Fontenay le Marmion. But this is unsure as of now.

-Kampfgruppe Sterz of the 2nd Panzer Division: Operated with 272nd Infantry Division in the May-sur-Orne area. Consisted of a PzKpfw IV Zug, a Panther Company, a SPW Battalion and a Panzerjager Battalion under Major Sterz. The PzKpfw IV Zug was under Oberleutnant Peter Prien.

-Kampfgruppe Meyer of the 9th SS Panzer Division Hohenstaufen: Operating in the area East of Fontenay-le-Marmion and advancing toward Point 88 and then moving to the area West of Fontenay-le-Marmion and advancing toward St. Martin-de-Fontenay and May-sur-Orne. Composed of SS Panzer Regiment 9, a Panzergrenadier battalion, an engineer company and a Flak battery.

-Kampfgruppe Zollhofer of the 9th SS Panzer Division Hohenstaufen: Operating in the area West of Fontenay-le-Marmion toward St. Martin-de-Fontenay and May-sur-Orne. Composed of a Panzergrenadier Regiment, a StuG Company and artillery support

But the problem is to this date that of the confirmation of the whereabouts of I./SS Panzer Regiment 1 Leibstandarte, the Panther Abteilung. I am wondering if anyone would have any information to help solve this mystery. According to The Leibstandarte Volume IV/1 by Lehmann and Tiemann and Jochen Peiper Commander Panzer Regiment Leibstandarte by Agte, the Panthers of I/SS Panzer Regiment 1 Leibstandarte counterattacked the Canadians during Operation Spring on July 25, 1944.

Yet Reynolds, in Steel Inferno, seems to doubt that the Panther Battalion was there and believes that it had moved to become a part of Kampfgruppe Wunsche by that time. Meyer in The History Of The 12th SS Panzer Division says that orders to form the Kampfgruppe were issued on July 23, says where the headquarters of the Kampfgruppe was from July 31 and on, but does not specify when exactly the Kampfgruppe was formed.

The actions of sSSPzAbt 101 during Operation Spring seem to not be mentioned that much. I have done some searching, at the same time as searching for information on the Panther Abteilung, and I have come up with some information on their actions in this area over a few days. The actions of I/SS Panzer Regiment 1 and sSSPzAbt 101 on this day may be similar.

Tigers of the 2nd Kompanie and 3rd Kompanie of sSSPzAbt 101 were active on the Bourguebus-Verrieres Ridge from July 18 on through July 22. On July 18 they were in the Bourguebus-Hubert Folie-Soliers area. On July 19-22 they were in the Verrieres-Beauvoir-Torteval area. Then, apparently on July 24 sSSPzAbt 101 was assigned to KG Wunsche but I wonder about this in the same way as I wonder about I/SS Panzer Regiment 1.

There were Tigers of 3rd Kompanie sSSPzAbt 101 near Garcelles-Secqueville on July 24. This area is just South of Tilly-la-Campagne. Apparently the Canadians reported "Tiger and Panthers" around the Rocquancourt-Verrieres area on July 25. I am wondering if perhaps the I/SS Panzer Regiment 1 and the 3rd Kompanie of sSSPzAbt 101 were involved in the counterattack on July 25, the day of Operation Spring, together.

They were there, in the area, so it seems very possible in my opinion.

So, the question still remains. Was there Panthers of I/SS Panzer Regiment 1 Leibstandarte opposing the Canadians during Operation Spring on July 25, 1944? It would be very interesting to find out for sure. Perhaps there are some sources out there that can confirm what armour the Canadians faced during Operation Spring.

Thanks in advance to all that can help!

Wolfkin

AKA

Jon Fitzgerald
Calgary,AB,Canada
__________________
Amateurs limit their study to either Tactics, Strategy or Logistics. Professionals study ALL THREE of these!!!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-10-05, 04:27
John McGillivray's Avatar
John McGillivray John McGillivray is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Quebec
Posts: 1,089
Default

In Roman Jarymowyez’s book “Tank Tactics from Normandy to Lorraine” he gives the following data about the number of German Armoured Battalions opposing the Canadian Corps.

19 July 1944: 1 Tiger Bn, 2 Panther Bns, 2 PzIV Bns, 2 JPz/Stug Bns; Total 7 Battalions.

21 July 1944: 1 Tiger Bn, 3 Panther Bns, 3 PzIV Bns, 3 Jpz/Stug Bns; Total 10 Battalions.

25 July 1944: 3 Tiger Bns, 1 Jg Panther Bn, 3 Panther Bns, 3 PzIV Bns, 4 JPz/Stug Bns; Total 14 Battalions.

Here is also a link to a site detailing the German Counter-attacks during Operation Spring.

http://info.wlu.ca/~wwwmsds/CMH%20ba...jarymowycz.htm
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-10-05, 01:50
Wolfkin Wolfkin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Calgary,AB,Canada
Posts: 42
Default

Hello John!

Thank you for this information and this link, there is some great information there! One thing about Operation Spring that I find amazing is that the Canadians, who were attacking, were outnumbered in the Armour department when compared to the Germans, who were defending. It is amazing that the Canadians were able to advance at all, considering the odds that they were up against.

Cheers,

Jon Fitzgerald
Calgary,AB,Canada
__________________
Amateurs limit their study to either Tactics, Strategy or Logistics. Professionals study ALL THREE of these!!!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-10-05, 03:19
John McGillivray's Avatar
John McGillivray John McGillivray is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Quebec
Posts: 1,089
Default

Jon,

I went through Niklas Zetterling’s book “Normandy 1944” looking to get an estimate of the amount of armour facing the Canadian Corps on or about July 25th. I came up with a number close to 400 combat ready tanks and SPGs in the immediate vicinity of the Canadians. If you include the armour of 12th SS and 116th Pz Div. which was deployed further back, you can probably increase the number to more than 500. At this same time where was only a little more than 100 tanks and SPGs facing all of the American forces.

During Operation Spring the Canadians were attacking a numerical superior enemy force, occupying strong defensive positions, and possessing a technological superiority in weapons.

You must also take into account the big picture. Monty’s big offensive was to consist of three operations: Goodwood, Atlantic and Cobra. Cobra was to start on the 19th of July. It was postponed day by day, until the 25th because of poor weather. The air forces did not want to bomb unless they had perfect conditions, and Bradley did not want to launch Cobra without the bombers. Allied commanders were worried that the Germans would spot the Americans waiting on their start lines, and would move forces west to strengthen their defences. The task fell on the Canadians to keep the German attention focused on the Caen sector, and away from the Americans.

The Germans were completely suckered. During the period 19th July to 25th July the Germans were increasing the amount of armour deployed in front of the Canadians. They had missed spotting the real threat and had the bulk of their armoured forces deployed in the wrong area.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 13-10-05, 02:36
Wolfkin Wolfkin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Calgary,AB,Canada
Posts: 42
Default

Hello John!

Good points you make there and points that I have noticed that are not mentioned very frequently by our neighbours to the South. It seems likely that Operation Cobra would not have been very successful without Operation Spring. The forces in Operation Cobra would not have been able to beak out if they faced the same opposition that the forces in Operation Spring did.

I am still confused about the whereabouts of I./SS Panzer Regiment 1 Leibstandarte, the Panther Abteilung of the Leibstandarte. I wonder why there is conflicting information about this particular unit. Why would The Leibstandarte Volume IV/1 by Lehmann and Tiemann and Jochen Peiper Commander Panzer Regiment Leibstandarte by Agte place them at the scene of the crime yet Reynolds, in Steel Inferno and Meyer in The History Of The 12th SS Panzer Division insist that it was a part of Kampfgruppe Wunsche at this time? Very confusing.

Cheers,

Jon Fitzgerald
Calgary,AB,Canada
__________________
Amateurs limit their study to either Tactics, Strategy or Logistics. Professionals study ALL THREE of these!!!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 19-10-05, 05:10
Wolfkin Wolfkin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Calgary,AB,Canada
Posts: 42
Default

Hello all!

I have been researching Operation Spring and have noticed a huge lack of available sources. I am wondering if perhaps I have overlooked some sources, be they articles or books. Would anyone be able to point me in the direction of any good articles, books or other sources that describe this operation in detail? Thank you in advance!

Cheers,

Jon Fitzgerald
Calgary,AB,Canada
__________________
Amateurs limit their study to either Tactics, Strategy or Logistics. Professionals study ALL THREE of these!!!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:52.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Maple Leaf Up, 2003-2016