Help-Unidentified flag

[James Gosling]

Hi everyone,
I bought this flag at an antique show this week and cannot identify it. Its a red ensign with the coat of arms in the picture. Its a good size 10 feet by 4. I've looked on the internet but haven't found it,please help!!!!!

James

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by James Gosling

Hi everyone,
I bought this flag at an antique show this week and cannot identify it. Its a red ensign with the coat of arms in the picture. Its a good size 10 feet by 4. I've looked on the internet but haven't found it,please help!!!!!

James

Interesting...James ..You may have a homemade family flag..
The latin//parva subincenti..may translate roughly to Small blessings or insentives ,maye prayers to a saint of holy person..female.maybe Mother Mary..
The windmill in the center may have a Dutch connection..but definately canadian ..
The Crown design may give you a time frame..It is a Tudor design but according to this it can be loosely used,..
Good luck with your search..but I believe it is a personal,one of and kind family flag..

All Tudor regalia was destroyed after the English Civil War, but details of the crowns are known from seals, coins etc. The 1901 heraldic crown is not like either of the crowns of Henry VII. A crown that appears to be a cross between these two was used on the 1870 flags of Newfoundland. The crown of Henry VIII is a little more like the 1901 heraldic crown.
David Prothero, 14 September 2004

The changed shape of crowns on flags after the accession of Edward VII in 1901 was the result of standardising the design. I imagine that the domed crown was chosen because it was the one the King preferred. There seems no reason for the change after 1952, except that it was the choice of the Queen. If the change was intended to have some symbolic significance, the meaning should have been obvious, or the significance of the new shape should have been promulgated. Shortly after I joined the Navy in 1952, badges were being changed for those having the new crown, but no explanation or reason for the change was announced. A new Royal Cypher is designed at the beginning of each new reign, and is approved by the sovereign before becoming official. Perhaps the appearance of the crown emblem that will be used during the reign is part of that process?
David Prothero, 30 September 2000

T.F. Mills wrote, "Why he [Edward VII] chose the Tudor design I don't know, but it has been suggested that he thought it looked more "imperial", but unless David can dig up something from the PRO I guess we will never know.

In response: All that I dug up was in an extract from 'The English Regalia' by Cyril Davenport, which is reproduced in A.C. Fox-Davies' 'A Complete Guide to Heraldry':
"St Edward's crown is the crown supposed to be heraldically represented when for State or official purposes the crown is represented over the Royal Arms or other insignia. In this the fleurs-de-lis upon the rim are only half fleurs-de-lis. This detail is scrupulously adhered to, but during the reign of Queen Victoria many of the other details were very much 'at the mercy' of the artist. Soon after the accession of King Edward VII the matter was brought under consideration, and the opportunity afforded by the issue of a War Office Sealed Pattern of the Royal Crown and Cypher for use in the army was taken advantage of to notify his Majesty's pleasure, that for official purposes the Royal Crown should be as shown in this image, which is a reproduction of the War Office Sealed Pattern already mentioned. It should be noted that whilst the cap of the real crown is of purple velvet, the cap of the heraldic crown is always represented as of crimson"

There are no PRO document titles that appear to be relevant, though the title is not always a good guide to all the contents of a document. Here is the Kew National Archives search facility. If anyone wants to browse and finds an interesting document name, I will investigate.
David Prothero, 14 September 2004

I do not think that there is any specific requirement to change the crown on a flag. Flags designed since 1953 have a St Edward's crown (unless they are Scottish); flags designed before 1953 continued with the existing Tudor crown until they needed replacing. The design of crown then used on the replacement flag is a matter of choice. There is nothing to say that the replacement of a 'pre-1953 flag' must have a St Edward's crown. It can be made to the original pattern with a Tudor crown, or have a St Edward's crown.
David Prothero, 1 March 2005

[cmperry4]

Here's a good place to start at the Flags of the World vexillological site:
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca-9prov.html

[Jason Ginn]

Thats a nice one! Circa 1905 Canadian ensign.

"THE SEVEN-PROVINCE BADGE

Within a year (on June 20, 1871), British Columbia had swollen the ranks to six provinces. British Columbia presented a problem that Manitoba did not. While it had a great seal, still in use from its colonial days, the pattern was completely inappropriate for use as an emblem of the province. The seal showed Queen Victoria with full robes, sceptre and orb, seated on a throne.35

The device adopted as an emblem for British Columbia was the royal crest flanked by the letters B and C, and a wreath of laurel and oak. The origin of the emblem is unknown. It does not seem to have ever been used to produce a six-province badge or ensign.

On July 1, 1873, Prince Edward Island entered Confederation, and, unlike British Columbia, brought with it a great seal readily adaptable as a badge. The seal showed saplings, representing the province, beside a large oak, representing Britain, with the motto, PARVA SUB INGENTI (the small under the protection of the great). It was essentially the same pattern that had appeared on the great seal of Prince Edward Island since 1769 when it was used for what then had been called the Island of Saint John (Île Saint-Jean).

By late 1874, the devices for British Columbia and Prince Edward Island had been added to the those of the other five provinces.36 The resulting seven-province shield was, by itself, a marvel of quasi-heraldic clutter, but with the addition of a wreath and crown, it became a dog's breakfast of devices. Not content to leave it alone at that, the designers added a beaver to the base of the wreath. The composite was in the best tradition of Canadian compromise: a little something for everyone, and, of course, the result got popularly dubbed the Arms of Canada.

The seven-province Red Ensign was flown enthusiastically and in great numbers across the country for a third of a century. It spoke of Canada, all of its provinces, and its relation to the empire. It was flown on ships, hotels, mine works, stores, manufacturing plants, and private homes. Many pictures survive showing it flying over the Victoria Tower of the pre-1916 parliament buildings. For public occasions, its use seemed required. An observer in the 1890s commented that parliamentary usage is to hoist the Canadian Red Ensign over the central tower of the Parliament Buildings for the opening and closing of parliament and for special occasions such as national holidays,37 and that the ensign hoisted "is the erroneous flag, so commonly everywhere displayed at that." He further complained that:

When the Intercolonial Conference met at Ottawa, in 1894, the House being in session, there floated from the Parliament tower, from the Department blocks, and from half of the public and private buildings in town, a collection of ensigns, with the Dominion badge in all forms of incorrectness, garlands, and the Dominion badge, in many case, about twice as large as the Imperial Union Jack itself!38

Usually the seven-province ensign is easily recognizable in pictures of the time by its familiar white roundel even when details of the badge are indecipherable. The white roundel was rarely used for earlier ensigns, never for later ones, and of all the seven-province ensigns the author has seen, only one early example did not place the badge on a white roundel.

The use of the seven-province shield was not confined to ensigns; it appeared everywhere. Occasionally accompanied by the wreath, but always with the crown, it was widely consumed by the public on statues, book covers, spoons, china and jewellery. Illustrations of the seven-province ensign were used on everything from Victorian cheesecake to the government's general service medal awarded in 1898 to those who repulsed the Fenian raids. The seven-province badge was the strident statement of Canadian identity of the late nineteenth century.

As these aberrant ensigns bore a crown, they underwent a change in 1901. During the Victorian era, the Saint Edward's crown (with the depressed arches) had been used, but upon the accession of Edward VII, in 1901, the (Tudor) crown with raised arches was adopted. The seven-province ensign with the Tudor crown continued until late in the first decade of the twentieth century. It began to be supplanted by the nine-province ensign in 1907."

Source: http://www.fraser.cc/FlagsCan/Nation/Ensigns.html

Similar example at: http://collections.civilization.ca/p...hp?irn=1369001

j

[James Gosling]

Jason ,Alex and Mark

Many thanks for all your help, Not a bad find for a Tuesday morning!

James