BEF Morris Commercial CS8

[Mike Kelly]

At first glance , this MCC CS8 appears to be rather showy and overdone . But the experts say it is actually much closer to the actual appearance of the BEF time , during the 1939-40 period , than we would think . Any comments appreciated .

Pic emailed to me by Richard , somewhere in the UK . Thanks .

Mike

[Mike Kelly]

Mike Starmers work reveals the true picture regarding colours .

[Neil Ashley]

I would suggest looking at Bovingtons Vickers Light Tank and Matilda 1 which are in the disruptive camouflage of the period.

The light green shade depicted looks a bit bright unless it is the photograph.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Mike Kelly
Mike Starmers work reveals the true picture regarding colours .

Quote from British Vehicle Camouflage 1939-45 Part 1 by Starmer and Cooper:

Europe
1939-41 – Bold horizontal/ diagonal patterns of two greens following M.T.P. 20 of June 1939. The most usual colours were a basic of Khaki Green No. 3 (BS 381C Middle Bronze Green No. 23 ) and Light Green No.5 (Light Bronze Green No. 22). Plain G3 or G5 were occasional alternatives. Infantry tanks Matilda I & II apparently only G3 and Dark Green G4 (Deep Bronze Green No. 24).

For comparison I include a picture which shows the 1939 Bedford MW a friend of mine restored almost 25 years ago. It still looks like it came out of the factory last week or so.

[Rich Payne]

Michael D. Taylor in his addendum to "British Military Markings 1939 - 1945" quotes MT pamphlet No. 20 as stating that two basic colour schemes are listed, both green on green with G3 (Khaki Green No.3)as the basic colour in both cases.

To paraphase, G4 (Dark Green No. 4) was to be used over G3 for average European conditions and G5 (Light Green No.5) disruptive patterning over "for very light backgrounds"

My personal view is that the light green on the Morris would stand out against the backgrounds of Northern France and Flanders. If the light colour is intended to represent the KG3 base colour then it does look very bright.

Certainly, my unrestored 1939 WD16H motorcycle seems to display a factory KG3 finish roughly overpainted with a textured dark green. The khaki is much browner than the Light Green of the Morris.

[Mike Kelly]

Mike Starmer describes Light Green No.5 AKA Light Bronze Green as being a light grassy green .

While pulling bits from a MCC CS8 , I discovered what I believe to be factory applied No. 5 green under the steering column bracket . It has a definate yellow hue to it , sort of looks like fresh grass . Mike suggests a good starting point , with a formula based on Humbrol numbers .

The point to remember is , the amount of sheen or shine present on the finish , really changes things a lot , making the same colour look radically different. It is amazing how the eye can give a different perspective with varying degrees of matt finish . I think the BEF CS8 would look a tad better with a less shiny finish .

Mike

[Mark Mackenzie]

Rich,

I would very much like to see some photos of your motor-bike. Did you take any photos that you can post?

Cheers,
Mark.

[cletrac (RIP)]

I'd say it's got a lot to do with the type of paint they used. You can't use a gloss or even semi-gloss paint to get the proper military look. It has to be a matte finish paint. Another thing that happens is getting too smooth a surface on the paint. Most of the military painting specs call for a rough finish (almost a pebbled surface) and the person doing the painting thinks he's doing a bad job when he gets that kind of a result. Everybody's too used to thinking an automotive finish has to be smooth. I've read lots of references to soldiers stirring sand in the paint to get the rough finish.

[Pete Ashby]

Really like the truck,
The style and application of the over colour looks good, the base colour looks a bit pea green in the photos, but as Mike points out different lighting and surface finish can all play a role in this I note the light levels were a bit low was flash used ? that can do some really weird stuff to colours.

By way of example I give you two of the OCMP's trucks displaying our interpretation of the early paint styles namely Steve Stones C30 11 cab in what we believe to be correct for the summer of 1940 and by comparison my C15 12 cab in the 1941/42 style alongside.
We matched our colours from remaining samples that had not been exposed to light heat or oil contamination.
The problem is we all see colures slightly differently particularly shades of red and green so one mans pea green is another mans G3.
Having said that I do have a bit of a thing about trying to get the colour right........... all power to the debate

Pete

[Mike Kelly]

This is the real thing , although very faded by more than 60 years of Aussie sun and rain !

This is the applied WW2 camo on my Morris Commercial PU . The two greens are clearly visible . It had a overcoat of light stone during its army life , and then a coat of cheap grey by the civilian dealer who sold it during 1945 .

The vehicle is a late production PU , late 40 or early 41 .

Mike

[Rich Payne]

Originally posted by Mark Mackenzie
I would very much like to see some photos of your motor-bike. Did you take any photos that you can post?

Mark,
Rob van den Brink has posted quite a few pictures on his site
http://www.wdnorton.nl/
The KG No.3 is a pretty good match in the photos, although the shot inside the headlamp makes it look a bit light. This may be because it is a bit of a dry "overspray" finish.

The darker green (No.4 ?) has not photographed so well because it is proving difficult to remove the rough coat of black that someone has slapped over everything. What I can say about the dark green is that it was very roughly brushed with quite straight edges in a sort of splinter pattern. The paint has a rough texture and includes lumps of quite a yellowish hard pigment which appears when flatting back. I have a suspicion that they didn't stir the tin !

The Lucas MCR 1 cvc box was presumably a stock item produced pre-war and was originally gloss "Service green" which is what is listed for several of the Lucas components in the LV7 for this contract.

Let me know if you want a closer look at anything.

Rich.

[Mark Mackenzie]

Thanks Rich,

The colour of your bike is remarkably similar to the CMPs of Pete Asbey and Steve Stone. There is also Jordan Baker’s Carrier which is also matched to an original paint sample:

http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/sh...0&pagenumber=5

Mike Starmer is working on a new mix for the Khaki Green 3. This is not one of the Bronze Greens as originally stated by B.T.White but is a brown-green based on a sample from Jordan Baker and other sources. Perhaps if you guys are willing, you could post sample’s of your paint? … I know Mike would be very interested to get a sample of the Dark Green.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Rich Payne]

Mark,

I'm sure that my colour(s) are very close to Pete's and Steve's. Certainly within the limits of photo reproduction. Jordan's Carrier both NOS and restored are also clearly within the same range.

What sort of images would you be looking for on the dark green ?
It is proving rather problematical to clean up a reasonable sample because of the rough texture and the black overpainting. Both the original and the black have long since evaporated all their solvents and although I 've tried various means, it is difficult to remove one without the other.

Does anyone here have experience of the sort of surface areas that can be scanned for paint matching or am I best doing it by eye ?

Rich.

[Mike Starmer]

Rich, I have tried to contact you via private message about that motorcycle colour. Did you get it? Mike S

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Here's another picture of the same Morris-Commercial CS8 15-cwt truck (source).

I'm sure the owners nicknamed it "grasshopper"

[Pete Ashby]

Hi Hanno

that is just plain scary !!

Pete

[Larry Hayward]

I saw this vehicle last year at MVT show at Kemble and thought it was a bit strange especially seeing as its gloss. However I do remember seeing a TV documentry in colour about wartime Britain which had a Bedford in the background that was painted two brightly contrasting shades of green. But even allowing for wartime colour movie film, the base colour was not as pea green as on this restored vehicle.

It also looks odd as its not what we expect, just like a pink Spitfire; who ever heard of one of those!

NB - the TV Documentry was the 'WW2 in Colour' one that was narrated by the late John Thore but I cannot remember the exact name of it.

[Rich Payne]

I visited Mike Starmer last week-end with a selection of my parts in an attempt to confirm Khaki Green No.3 and identify the darker overpainting.

Mike has an amazing eye for colour differences (and ability to compose comparable mixes).

As I understand it, Mike is now confident that the 1940 era KG 3 can be replicated but the darker colour is proving more problematical. It is not the Dark Green No.4 that I supposed and is not dark enough to provide a contrasting disruptive effect. It may be a "Light Green" or Mike wondered about a locally obtained French Colour.

I will try to match it for my restoration but it seems unsafe to rely on as a general reference.

Here's a picture of Mike getting down to work looking for original colour on the front mudguard.