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  #61  
Old 20-12-15, 23:36
chris vickery's Avatar
chris vickery chris vickery is online now
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Terry you will want your truck to lose a couple pounds somehow.
The threshold is 4500kg and over....
What is the listed curb weight according to your data plates?
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3RD Echelon Wksp

1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC
1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC
1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army
1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR
1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer
1943 Converto Airborne Trailer
1983 M1009 CUCV

RT-524, PRC-77s,
and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and.......

OMVA, MVPA, G503, Steel Soldiers
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  #62  
Old 21-12-15, 09:33
Jack Innes Jack Innes is offline
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Terry,

The Registered Gross Weight is the combined weight of the truck, trailer & load in the eyes of the MOT.

From the MOT site under Definitions;

Commercial motor vehicle: any motor vehicle with a permanently attached truck or delivery body, including ambulances, hearses, casket wagons, fire apparatus, buses and tractors used for hauling loads.

Gross weight: the combined weight of vehicle and load.

Registered gross weight: the weight for which a permit has been issued under the HTA; the fee for the permit is based upon the weight of the vehicle or combination of vehicles and load
.

From personal experience, this year I had to reduce the RGW on my diesel 3/4 ton pickup to 4600kg since my CVOR has expired (without notification). This leaves me the capability of carrying about a large motorcycle legally on my tandem flat bed trailer before I am over weight.
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  #63  
Old 21-12-15, 13:09
Grant Bowker Grant Bowker is offline
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This is a general comment - not aimed at any of the previous posters.

I try to be legal in what I do but find it difficult to understand the complexities of driver and vehicle licensing in Ontario. In extremely general terms, if your combination of towing vehicle, trailer and loads total less than 4500 kg and are operated safely life is fairly simple. Once past the 4500 kg threshold, and in some cases sooner, life gets more complex if you want to be in full compliance.

As with almost all regulations there are complexities.
To use an example from http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/tru...icle-faq.shtml question 16:
"If the trailer weighs more than 2,800 kg (6,171 lb.):
  • register the truck for at least the combined weight of the truck and trailer, weights A and B
If the trailer weighs 2,800 kg (6,171 lb.) or less:
  • register the truck for at least the weight of the truck (weight A), which includes trailer tongue weight
  • weight transmitted directly to the ground by the trailer is not included in the RGW"
In other words, if the trailer is light enough, its weight does not have to be included in the truck's registered gross weight.

For anyone treading the thin line of legality, probably quite a few of us (me included) given the weight capabilities of modern pickups and the solid build of many MVs - please don't take my post or even the MTO website as the definitive answer on what you can or can't do legally. Please check the legislation and regulations listed in Q4 of the same website (not all regulations apply in every case but even that might not be the full list).

Highway Traffic Act:
and
Regulation 629 Accessible Vehicles
Regulation 199/07 Commercial Motor Vehicle Inspections
Regulation 424/97 Commercial Motor Vehicle Operators' Information
Regulation 577 Covering of Loads
Regulation 340/94 Drivers' Licences
Regulation 587 Equipment
Regulation 555/06 Hours of Service
Regulation 11/04 International Registration Plan
Regulation 611 Safety Inspections
Regulation 612 School Buses
Regulation 363/04 Security of Loads
Regulation 381/98 Special Permits
Regulation 618 Specifications and Standards for Trailer Couplings
Regulation 628 Vehicle Permits
Regulation 413/05 Vehicle Weights and Dimensions - For Safe Productive and Infrastructure-Friendly Vehicles
Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act
Fuel Tax Act
Public Vehicle Act
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  #64  
Old 21-12-15, 15:39
chris vickery's Avatar
chris vickery chris vickery is online now
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One must remember that MTO officers can and will do as they like. Armchair lawyers take note. Better to be on the side of compliance, ignorance is not a defence, nor is "I thought..."
Trying to pass off a 1 ton plus military vehicle as a pickup when in fact it is not is only going to lead you into troubled waters.
Furthermore, it does not really matter what your registration says. Too many times the poor MTO lady at the office simply does not really know what you have either. MTO officers can order your vehicle in for an inspection and re-write of your registration if they deem it inaccurate or misleading.
At the very least you are in for a weigh in and likely a mechanical inspection as well at the scales. Remember too that MTO inspection officers are likely not familiar with the weirdness of military vehicle mechanical systems neither and can up the ante by pulling your plates and sending you off for inspection at a certified mechanic station.
Food for thought.
__________________
3RD Echelon Wksp

1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC
1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC
1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army
1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR
1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer
1943 Converto Airborne Trailer
1983 M1009 CUCV

RT-524, PRC-77s,
and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and.......

OMVA, MVPA, G503, Steel Soldiers
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  #65  
Old 21-12-15, 18:40
Jack Innes Jack Innes is offline
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Grant has led us to some very useful information. There is a section that clearly spells out the regulation that is often interpreted differently by different MOT officers. http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/tru...-faq.shtml#a16 I have printed a copy to go in each of my trucks for roadside reference if needed. It would seem that a considerable load can be carried legally if carefully placed on the trailer.

It is worth noting as well that, while they do not announce it, most weigh stations leave their scales on when they are not open & do not mind their use. I will be doing so again soon.
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  #66  
Old 21-12-15, 22:01
Mike Gray Mike Gray is offline
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Default Historic Vehicle Plates

Well, I agree with Chris. Ignorance is not a defence. Yet it can, and is, a double edged sword. And we often find ourselves at the mercy of those who do not know any better. Witness Jeff Davis from Maple ridge, B.C., under Coming Events forum,was stopped on the way to Remembrance Parade by R.C.M.P. and almost ticketed for not having doors on his '42 Willys.
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  #67  
Old 21-12-15, 22:06
Grant Bowker Grant Bowker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Innes View Post
It is worth noting as well that, while they do not announce it, most weigh stations leave their scales on when they are not open & do not mind their use. I will be doing so again soon.
Another source of information regarding the weight of your vehicles is the scale at your local gravel pit or garbage dump. Some will give an unofficial weight for free but most I have met will charge if you want an official printed version of the weight ticket.
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  #68  
Old 21-12-15, 22:35
chris vickery's Avatar
chris vickery chris vickery is online now
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Nipissing Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,955
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You can also check your local truck stops, many of them have CAT certified scales but will charge you for a scale ticket.
__________________
3RD Echelon Wksp

1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC
1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC
1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army
1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR
1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer
1943 Converto Airborne Trailer
1983 M1009 CUCV

RT-524, PRC-77s,
and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and.......

OMVA, MVPA, G503, Steel Soldiers
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 22-12-15, 16:02
Eric B Eric B is offline
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Posts: 580
Default Commercial Motor Vehicle in Ontario

Hello

It seems this thread has moved to Commercial Motor Vehicle (CMV) category from historic plates.

There are lots of good points brought up. Generally 4500 kilograms is the magic number.

One thing you must remember is its not the actual combined weight that is looked at, but the Registered Gross Vehicle Weight (RGVW), this is the weight that the trailer and truck is capable of carrying.

There are two parts to your truck registration. The left side has the empty weight (GVW). The right side has the RGVW, this is the maximum you registered the vehicle for including occupants, load and trailer. If you exceed this number you are overweight and you pay by the kg over the trucks RGVW.

You can get this increased at the MTO office...for a fee of course.

The trailer will only have the GVW on the left side. The RGVW will be on the data plate attached to the trailer. (This is the number looked at for RGVW not what you have actually loaded on the trailer).

Many time the trucks RGVW is too low, when you add the GVW of the trailer with the GVW of the truck, combined it exceeds the trucks RGVW. If this is the case then you are overweight just hooking the trailer up.

If you have an unmodified pickup that exceeds 4500 kg (dual wheels) then you have some exemptions (with CVOR, Annual inspections etc).. that is until you hook up a dual axle trailer. Most dual axle trailers have a minimum RGVW of 3175 kg. Which as soon as you hook up to any truck will put you over 4500 kg.

If the trailer requires an annual safety inspection.. so does the truck.

MTO now check for CVOR when you renew your vehicles plates. If the RGVW is over 4500 they will not renew it unless you have a CVOR or advise them that it is under the exemption.

MTO Enforcers are well trained in this area. It is a standardized training and not up to individual interpretation as insinuated in this thread.

It is up to the vehicle owners/drivers to follow the rules.

With Commercial Motor Vehicles (those above 4500 kg regardless of what it is being used for) the driver and /or the owner can be charged.

Not having an annual safety inspection is a $240.00 fine, for each the trailer and truck. It is cheaper to get the safety than to get the ticket, which then will effect your insurance rating as well.

There are no exemptions for renting or borrowing a truck or trailer for annual safety inspections, so make sure it has one if you choose to exceed the 4500 kg category.

There may also be a requirement for a daily vehicle inspection and/or log book.

Again there are some exemptions but they are very limited and specific.

Please go to the MTO web page or e-laws Ontario for more clarification. Don't ask the person at the Service Ontario office, or in law enforcement who does not deal with CMV's on a regular basis as they have limited knowledge.

By the way if you are from out of province, i.e. Quebec, you might be exempt from an annual inspection in Quebec but will require to follow the Ontario rules if you choose to drive here and your combination is over 4500 kg.


Thanks

Eric
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Collecting data on the WW2 Canadian jeep and trailer.
Serial, WD Numbers etc.
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  #70  
Old 22-12-15, 19:12
Eric B Eric B is offline
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Default more to last posting

Hello

I just reread my last posting. Just to clarify i am talking predominantly about the Annual Safety Inspection requirements for Ontario.

Some info is relevant to the CVOR.

So that there is no confusion... the definition of a Commercial Motor Vehicle is different for the Annual Safety Inspection and the CVOR.

Each has their own classification and exemptions.

Just because you might be exempt from the CVOR does not mean that you are exempt from the Annual Safety Inspection.

i.e Most pick up trucks towing a dual axle trailer will require an annual safety inspection on both the truck and trailer. But they do not necessarily require a CVOR.

It can be confusing, especially if you look at everything together rather than look at each requirement separately.

Thanks

Eric
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Collecting data on the WW2 Canadian jeep and trailer.
Serial, WD Numbers etc.
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  #71  
Old 03-01-16, 23:04
david moore david moore is offline
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Default Confused in Kingston

Grant/Eric
I am now really confused about which vehicle/trailer combination needs registration other than the standard mandatory vehicle plate registration.

I'm talking here of a standard pick-up (3000kg) with 2 axle trailer (GVW i.e. max load designed for of 3500Kg but actual weight much less even with load).

The examples from MTO that you quoted, Grant , talk of trailer weight less than, or more than 2800 kg. Is this the ACTUAL weight of trailer and load or the RGV weight for which the trailer is designed which would often be much higher than the actual weight?
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  #72  
Old 05-01-16, 23:23
Eric B Eric B is offline
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Default weights

Hello David

Is 3000 kg your empty or registered weight?

I am guessing that this is your Registered Gross Vehicle Weight on the right side of your registration. If this is your RGVW you cannot exceed that weight with any load, or load/ trailer combination. Otherwise you pay by the kg overweight.

Look at your Gross vehicle weight (GVW) this is your empty weight on the left side of your registration.

Add that to the empty weight of the trailer. (On your vehicle registration) You should find that it may be higher than 3000. If so you need to increase your RGVW at Service Ontario to reflect your true weight. Your actual weight has to be lower than that of the RGVW.

With your trailer having a RGVW of 3500 kg (from your data plate) this will place your combination higher than 4500 kg. It is what the trailer is capable of carrying and not what you are actually carrying. As such you need to have an annual safety inspection on both the truck and trailer.

If your actual combined weight is less than 4500 kg you will not need a CVOR. If it is higher than 4500 kg then you will need a CVOR.

Remember CVOR and Annual Safety Inspections are two different things.

In addition if you need a CVOR you should also require a pre-trip inspection and possible a daily log book depending on the distances you travel. Even if just done once.

Thanks
Eric
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Collecting data on the WW2 Canadian jeep and trailer.
Serial, WD Numbers etc.
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  #73  
Old 08-01-16, 02:36
david moore david moore is offline
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Default Thanks for clarification

Thanks, Eric - now very clear. I'll be checking actual weights in the spring when I can get at the kit but it looks like I may be in the commercial haulage business unintentionally!
Frankly, for about 4 or 5 outings a year it may not be worth all the hassle so I may bow out gracefully!
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  #74  
Old 08-01-16, 22:19
Mike Gray Mike Gray is offline
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Eric,
Our trailer GVW goes to 10,400 lbs., max. The M37 ramps up well, at just under 5,800 lbs. The M38 is a lighter haul, at just over 2,000 lbs. So we stay well within the load limits. Locking down to ensure compliance to MTO is necessary.
However, it does make travelling to events a bit of a chore, and we may cut back on going out with our MV'S.
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  #75  
Old 09-01-16, 17:38
david moore david moore is offline
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Default Moderator - add this to Resto Forum?

This thread has been very useful indeed - lots of things I had no idea about and this is true I'll bet for many others . What about adding this thread to the restoration forum?
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  #76  
Old 10-01-16, 01:52
Stuart Fedak Stuart Fedak is offline
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Default July 01, 2016 is not far away

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Churcher View Post
From Barry

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/tru...ons.shtml#form


View the draft proposed changes here. This will likely be the new standards.

http://www.ontariocanada.com/registr...chmentId=27411
I had a read through the new regulations The one thing I found most interesting to me, was the Inspections Types. The Safety Standard Inspection will be the first hurdle when getting a restoration project ready to go on the road in Ontario. It also applies when purchasing a new to you project, so keep this in mind when buying someone else's project in Ontario....

Quote:
Safety Standard Inspection - required when registering a ‘rebuilt’ motor vehicle, transferring a used motor vehicle to a new owner, registering a motor vehicle in Ontario that was previously registered in another province, territory or country, and changing the status of a vehicle from ‘unfit’ to ‘fit’. A Safety Standard Certificate (SSC) is issued to a vehicle that passes this inspection. It is valid for 36 days. A SSC is required to register and plate a used vehicle. The SSC certifies that the vehicle met the minimum safety standards on the date it was issued. It is not a warranty or guarantee.
The following applies to a Passenger / Light Duty Vehicle Inspection Standard

Quote:
Summary of Changes Effective July 1, 2016


This is a summary of major changes that come into effect on July 1, 2016 - please refer to the Passenger / Light Duty Vehicle Inspection Standard for the full description of inspection criteria.
Technicians must complete the vehicle inspection in accordance with the full Passenger / Light Duty Vehicle Inspection Standard referenced in Ontario Regulation 611.
Section 1 – Powertrain

  • New requirements have been added to the powertrain system, including: accelerator pedal, throttle actuator, exhaust system, drive shaft, differential, clutch, clutch pedal, engine and transmission mounts, gear shifter/ selector and position indicator, drive belt pulley, electric and hybrid electric powertrain, gasoline and diesel fuel systems, and compressed natural gas and propane fuel systems.
Section 2 – Suspension

  • There are new ride height, bushing, and shock / strut requirements. There are also new requirements for air suspension components and suspension system travel.
Section 3 – Brakes

  • There are new requirements to measure and record the dimensions of brake components including drum, rotor and brake lining.
  • There is a better distinction between various types of brake systems -- the criteria are now more closely aligned with the specific requirements for each of the various system types. (e.g. vacuum assist, hydraulic assist, air assist).
  • There are new requirements for Anti-lock Brake System (ABS).
  • Electronic Stability Control (ESC) systems are now required for light duty vehicles manufactured on or after September 1, 2011. The system must function as intended for those vehicles that require the system.
Section 4 – Steering

  • Rack and pinion steering system requirements, including associated parts (boot, bellows, clamps) have been added in addition to those for recirculating ball type.
  • New requirements for upper strut bearings, steering dampener, tilt/telescopic hardware, remote steering systems, hydraulic power steering system pump and associated components and minimum parts quality and maximum leakage requirements have been introduced.
  • Steering lash requirements have been simplified.
Section 5 – Instruments and Auxiliary Equipment

  • New requirements have been added for horn switch, speedometer, odometer, windshield wiper.
  • Limits on coolant leakage from all heaters and fuel leakage from auxiliary heaters were added.
Section 6 – Lamps

  • Lighting requirements have been changed to incorporate the lighting equipment required by the federal safety standard at the time the vehicle was new.
Section 7 – Electrical

  • The revised section provides requirements for vehicle wiring.
  • Requirements for the vehicle’s battery are provided. Battery, posts, connections, mounts, and covers must be tight and free from corrosion, deterioration, or evidence of burning. All equipment must be secure, comprised of OEM-quality components, and in good condition.
Section 8 – Body

  • Specific requirements have been introduced to deal with a loss of structural integrity of cab, cargo or passenger body, frame or sub-frame, tailgate, bumper, seats and seat belts due to specified weaknesses, deficiencies, damage, seizure, wear, loss of components or material or improper repair procedures.
  • New requirement to inspect equipment, latches, handles, door openers, hinges and other devices attached to the vehicle. All equipment must be in good working condition, not be missing, nor present an unsafe or hazardous condition to individuals who may be exposed to the vehicle.
  • New requirement to inspect the entire area of the windshield swept by either the driver’s or passenger’s side wiper, with limits specified.
  • Window tint requirements are part of the new standard.
  • Occupant protection systems required by federal law must now be tested for functionality via the vehicle telltale diagnostic lamp. The system check includes, when originally equipped, air bags, seatbelt pre-tensioners, and side air bag curtains.
Section 9 – Tire and Wheel

  • The new requirement fails a tire if any single point on a tire’s tread is below the minimum.
  • The minimum required tread depth has increased.
  • No mixing of radial with other tire construction types (such as bias ply) is permitted.
  • The use of wheel spacers is now prohibited, although adaptors are permitted if they are in good mechanical condition.
Section 10 – Coupling Devices

  • Clearer distinctions between various types of hitch systems with more complete criteria aligned with specific requirements for each hitch type.
Section 11 – Road Test

  • A section has been added to the Standard to capture the elements that should be inspected and recorded during a road test of the vehicle including: tell-tales, shock absorber functionality, odometer, steering, etc.
General

  • An inspection report must be provided to the consumer, noting important information about the results of the inspection, including measurements for specified components (e.g. tire tread depth); and, any warning lamps that are illuminated. Licensees or Technicians can create their own report provided it meets all the requirements set out in section 9.1 of Regulation 601.
The detailed Reference document is 97 pages in length and should be reviewed before, during and after you have completed your restoration project in preparation to having the inspection performed. It looks like the original technical manuals should be available to the mechanic to review at the time the vehicle is inspected.

When I first had my Canadian Bombardier Iltis inspected and put on the road, I had used a local dealership in Ottawa that had a service contract with DND for the Bombardier Iltis, so they were already familiar with the vehicle. I can see this may be more complicated with an older vehicle.

A quick read of the new standards suggests that this new process would certainly fail many historic military vehicles that were approved under the current regulations.

Quote:
4, Frame, Rails and Mounts.
Repair of holes in the floor of the vehicle due to corrosion perforation is permitted, provided that the hole does not extend into a structural area of the floor, such as seat-belt anchors, seat supports or rocker panels. Edges of the hole prepared for repair must not exceed 200 mm in length or extend within 50 mm of tunnel, rocker, seat-support structure or firewall / bulkhead (see illustration xx
). No "pop" rivets, arc welding or flame repair. TIG or MIG stitch welding is acceptable.
This gives some guidance on some restoration techniques that should be used. There is a DND manual that is specific to the Canadian Bombardier Iltis that gives additional guidance on techniques to conduct body repairs. I assume that this O.E.M. direction would be valuable in meeting any concerns.

Your thoughts?

Stuart
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