Historic Vehicle Plates: Pros/Cons in Ontario, Canada

[Stuart Fedak]

I was wondering about the advantages and disadvantages of Historic Vehicle Plates for vehicles such as the Canadian Bombardier Iltis in the Province of Ontario (Canada).

(OREG 628)
“historic vehicle” means, a motor vehicle that,
(a) is at least 30 years old,
(b) is operated on a highway in parades, for purposes of exhibition, tours or similar functions organized by a properly constituted automobile club or for purposes of repair, testing or demonstration for sale,
(c) is substantially unchanged or unmodified from the original manufacturer’s product, and
(d) does not have attached to it year-of-manufacture plates

What is the advantage of a "Historic Vehicle" plate on a vehicle, rather than a regular motor vehicle registration?

It seems to me, in the definition of a Historic Vehicle puts restrictions on the use of the vehicle. I know in Ottawa, there are very few events that are functions organized by a properly constituted automobile club.

I am unaware of any official recent events in Ottawa that have been organized by a properly constituted automobile club, such as OMVA.

I know that folks can say that they are out-and-about for "purposes of repair, testing or demonstration for sale" , but depending on how much you drive in a given year, that could be a stretch.......

What is the risk of having a Historic Vehicle plate? I know that insurance rates are usually reduced when a vehicle has Historic Vehicle plates.

Your thoughts?

Stuart

[maple_leaf_eh]

My interpretation of the Historic Plate is its limited annual mileage clause. Yes, I do roadtests every week during the driving season. But I'd like to have the option of a significantly long roadtrip, without worrying about exceding some arbitrary cap. My road insurance is a rider (?) on my daily driver policy with restrictions of its own, such as no off-road and no driving to work regularly.

As we know, keeping the wheels turning and the engines working is troublesome enough without an additional set of restrictions. So, unless I had something that had bad road manners or was so scarce I'd be afraid of damage, my vote it to plate the Jeep like a car and only deal with the insurance company restrictions.

[Stuart Fedak]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

My interpretation of the Historic Plate is its limited annual mileage clause. ... my vote it to plate the Jeep like a car and only deal with the insurance company restrictions.

I have not seen a limited annual mileage clause in the Highway Traffic Act (Ontario). I assume you are referring to the additional restrictions imposed by private insurance, when a vehicle is insured as a Historic Vehicle.

I agree on the importance of keeping any vehicle running and exercised to keep all the seals, gaskets and parts moving. There seems to be a consensus that just taking a vehicle out a few times a season is not enough....

I consider the slightly higher vehicle registration and insurance costs are well worth the ability to decide on a wonderful afternoon to jump in the Jeep, take the BBQ and go for a drive along the Rideau River and stop for supper.

I also prefer to drive my "Jeep" to events within a 300 km radius of Ottawa, rather than tow it to the event.

I understand that for certain Historic Vehicles, that the Historic Vehicle plate may offer some advantages.... To quote a phase in use in Canada at the moment, my "Jeep" ... "is just not ready yet...." to be a Historic Vehicle.

Cheers!
Stuart

[Edwin Wand]

How does one define a properly constituted automobile club.

Presumably, something organized by the Cdn War Museum could be an issue because it is not an automobile club. Could the same be said about a Lions Club somewhere when they include a jeep or two in their May Day parade?

The same wording seems to apply to a dealer's plate. There have been instance where dealer plates have been used to allow historic vehicles to be driven without having to worry about insurance, plates and safety certificates.

[Stuart Fedak]

Edwin,
I have found over the years that jurisprudence can be very confusing to understand properly, as some things are not very well defined. This is often done on purpose. Also, some jurisprudence "remains silent" on the details, which leaves the final interpretation to a judge, if and when the case goes to court. It also means, that until it is tested in court, the fine points will not be obvious.

To make things even more confusing, you can be dealing with several layers of government, federal, provincial, and municipal who all tend to interfere and try to further define things, which they may or may not have authority to limit or permit.

The other confusing thing, is any item in law, can not be interpreted in isolation or in a few lines. It is usually in combination with other laws, regulations and amendments to an act.

In looking at the issue of "Historic Vehicle" plates in Ontario, I just would like to understand when is this a good thing (from the perspective of the collector) and when is it more trouble (again from the perspective of the collector).

In my case where I like to drive my vehicle a lot over the summer months, it appears there is not really any advantage to the Historic Vehicle plates. It just seems to be more restrictive.

For those who have gone the route of the "Historic Vehicle" plate in Ontario, what did you consider the advantage to be, in your particular case?

When I read...

(b) is operated on a highway in parades, for purposes of exhibition, tours or similar functions organized by a properly constituted automobile club ........... and when organizations such as the Ontario Military Vehicle Association (OMVA) do not seem to be interested in sponsoring parades or tours, who do we have left in Ontario that can be a properly constituted automobile club?

I think at one time the local chapters of OMVA could help sponsor events, but it seems those days are gone...... This seems a valuable service that could be done for those who have their vehicles registered as "Historic Vehicles"......

Your thoughts?

Stuart

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

My interpretation of the Historic Plate is its limited annual mileage clause. Yes, I do roadtests every week during the driving season. But I'd like to have the option of a significantly long roadtrip, without worrying about exceding some arbitrary cap. My road insurance is a rider (?) on my daily driver policy with restrictions of its own, such as no off-road and no driving to work regularly.

As we know, keeping the wheels turning and the engines working is troublesome enough without an additional set of restrictions. So, unless I had something that had bad road manners or was so scarce I'd be afraid of damage, my vote it to plate the Jeep like a car and only deal with the insurance company restrictions.

Insurance is an added layer of complexity to this discussion. Not just liability but fire, theft and vandalism. My household insurance doesn't cover everything with wheels. Snowblowers, bikes and wheelbarrows, but not motorized vehicles. If my parked 'green treasures' are damaged or destroyed they are not necessarily fully insured. I suppose I could argue and complain if my claim would be disallowed, or pay much more per month.

The same company wouldn't insure the M151A2 as a driver because it is over 20yrs old and would have been a new vehicle to them. This is why I had to go to Haggarty, and their policy has limitations.

[rob love]

Manitoba has antique plates, which are only good for parades, events, and to and from the repair shop. No random Sunday drives. It is basically liability insurance, and costs under $100 a year.

The Manitoba Association of Auto Clubs (MAAC) is the umbrella organization that deals with our government insurance company Autopac. If a parade or event is published in their newsletter, then you are definitely good to go. The various clubs will feed their events up to MAAC for publication.

MAAC negotiated for another plate and insurance plan: the collectors plate. A lot more expensive, it combines the insurance required during the warm months with layover insurance for the winter months. It is significantly more than antique plates, requires a safety inspection, and limits the size of the vehicle below 10K pounds.

For myself, there are some military vehicles I drive to work which get regular insurance, and some which only go to the odd display in which the antique plate fills the need. I have not used the collectors plate yet, but may look into it in the future.

I suspect Autopac and the government would just as soon we all drove 5 year old or less vehicles with full safety inspections. Lobbying them for exemptions is very difficult, which is why we have MAAC: there is strength in numbers. Mind you, since our insurance is a government mandated monopoly, getting them to make concessions is difficult.

[Mike Gray]

Lots of great replies and posts here guys about the subject. I can only add by saying we have historic plates on both our vehicles, 1954 M37 and 1967 M38A1. The licence stickers are cheaper (big deal) and our insurance is also. However, 95% of the time we provide our own lift, and trailer to an event. We make sure we are locked down to regulations, otherwise MTO will now be up our ass.
One interesting anecdote. Coming back from Campbellford Legion Anniversary one Sunday morning, 8:30 a.m., maniac cop stopped the Bren Carrier. We were fined for not having Slow Moving Vehicle triangle!

[Terry Witiuk]

When transferring ownership of my Ferret, I chose regular plates based on the description/restrictions by MTO for use of a vehicle if licensed with Historic Vehicle plates. I knew that I would be driving it more for pleasure than for parades or exhibition. I figured that if something terrible happened while out on a "Sunday afternoon drive", the insurance company would be quick to investigate and possibly find a way to not cover me. Better safe than sorry. Insured the Ferret through Lant Insurance with Haggerty as the actual insurance company or underwriter.
Cheers, Terry.

[Stuart Fedak]

Originally Posted by Mike Gray

One interesting anecdote. Coming back from Campbellford Legion Anniversary one Sunday morning, 8:30 a.m., maniac cop stopped the Bren Carrier. We were fined for not having Slow Moving Vehicle triangle!

Originally Posted by Mike Gray

But, as pointed out previously in this thread, our Bren Carrier was ticketed and fined for not having Slow Moving Vehicle triangle, though we were not told it was required, or is it, when Historic Vehicle plates were issued us.

Mike, just for clarification..... in Ontario the requirement for the Slow Moving Triangle is not a requirement just for Historic Vehicle Plates.

This is in the Ontario Driver's Handbook

Ref: http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dan...ion3.1.6.shtml

... "The “slow-moving vehicle” sign is an orange triangle with a red border. It alerts other drivers that the vehicle ahead will be travelling at 40 km/h or less. When on a road, farm tractors, farm implements/machinery, and vehicles not capable of sustaining speeds over 40 km/h must display the slow moving vehicle sign. Watch for these slow moving vehicles and reduce your speed as necessary. .....




In jurisprudence, ignorance of the law is not a defence. In the case of everyone with a valid drivers license, it is assumed that they are aware of the rules and regulations, and take all appropriate safety steps.

I would consider it prudent to put a "Slow Moving Vehicle" sign on the rear of a Bren carrier on any public highway. When you arrive at your destination, for display, you could then remove the sign.

What most folks do not understand, is when there is an official "parade", approved by the local competent authorities, the Highway Traffic Act is temporarily suspended on the designated section of the parade route, once the barricades are put up. That is why during a parade, a Shriner can drive a little motorcycle that looks like an airplane....

There are still other complications, such as additional municipal regulations. For example in Ottawa, anything with tracks (Bren Carrier) requires an additional permit ($$$) to drive on city streets. This is aimed at the owners of cranes and construction equipment who can cause damage to roads.

There are lots of fine (no pun intended) details when organizing such events.

With all due respect, I think the peace officer was well within his duties to issue a ticket. It was an unsafe condition.

I would hope that you always carry a break down kit with reflectors and flares.
It would not be unusual for a Bren Carrier to stop dead in it's track, and there is no way you are going to be able to push it off to the side. That much steel sitting on a highway would present a significant risk to any vehicle who slams into it.

I have a nice DND issue and German issue breakdown kit that I carry for just that purpose. Similar commercial units are available at Canadian Tire, Princess Auto, and most truck stop shops.

Stuart

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

A couple of thoughts. The insurance and registration fees are a big factor, so unless you're made of money, 'historic' is the way to go. Every CMP I've licensed was historic and I never had a problem doing a lot of 'road testing'. I don't see anywhere where they require a log for such use.

I find it odd that year of manufacture plates (I'm talking Ontario here) are not acceptable. Of all the vehicles that would benefit from such a program you'd think historic ones would be top of the list. I hope I'm reading that requirement right. In my perfect world a CZ XXX number painted on the door of a 15cwt would be a legal 'license plate' under the year of manufacture plate regulation.

The other wrinkle is that, despite being historic in every other respect, the 'commercial' regulations based on weight still apply. So even if your 60cwt is historic by one regulation, the regulation that says any vehicle over a certain weight is 'commercial' prevails and commercial requirements must still be met. So in theory, a 'historic' seventy year old 60cwt is also by definition a commercial vehicle liable for all the safety, lighting, inspection and use restrictions required of a modern vehicle in the same weight range. Don't even think about putting historic plates on an antique truck with air brakes. I know all of his because of my attempt to license my somewhat overweight Fox. I could have omitted any mention of weight (the clerk processing the application wouldn't be the wiser; nothing but a historic 2 door 'hard' top...right?) but should I crush some Honda Civic that would be no defense.

Bottom line, weeze wun ober-regulamated bunch 'a schmucks.

Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak

I was wondering about the advantages and disadvantages of Historic Vehicle Plates for vehicles such as the Canadian Bombardier Iltis in the Province of Ontario (Canada).

(OREG 628)
“historic vehicle” means, a motor vehicle that,
(a) is at least 30 years old,
(b) is operated on a highway in parades, for purposes of exhibition, tours or similar functions organized by a properly constituted automobile club or for purposes of repair, testing or demonstration for sale,
(c) is substantially unchanged or unmodified from the original manufacturer’s product, and
(d) does not have attached to it year-of-manufacture plates

What is the advantage of a "Historic Vehicle" plate on a vehicle, rather than a regular motor vehicle registration?

It seems to me, in the definition of a Historic Vehicle puts restrictions on the use of the vehicle. I know in Ottawa, there are very few events that are functions organized by a properly constituted automobile club.

I am unaware of any official recent events in Ottawa that have been organized by a properly constituted automobile club, such as OMVA.

I know that folks can say that they are out-and-about for "purposes of repair, testing or demonstration for sale" , but depending on how much you drive in a given year, that could be a stretch.......

What is the risk of having a Historic Vehicle plate? I know that insurance rates are usually reduced when a vehicle has Historic Vehicle plates.

Your thoughts?

Stuart

[Robin Craig]

Here is a quick answer, don't.

Longer answer, while most cops have far much better things to worry about than investigating whether the Lower Little Podlesham Antique Vehicle and Laundry Mangle Club is a properly constituted entity if you got the one odious one who did go digging do you really want to get screwed over?

Honestly, you are restricting the use of your vehicle for the sake of wearing a plate that identifies the vehicle as being old, why? Those who know what an Iltis is already know. The great unwashed masses of the public wouldn't know the difference between it or an M38 nor do they care.

I come back to the base point, what great advantage or purpose does having that plate get you? A few bucks lower annual renewal fee, well whoo hoo! Most of us have likely blown that saving on this years dud purchase anyway!

Back to you

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

I stand to be corrected because it's been a few years, but if I recall it wasn't so much the registration cost, it was insurance. With historic plates (I assume based on lower use) you paid a pittance. If you had regular plates you paid regular insurance as if it were your 'day' car. Maybe that's changed and you pay the full freight in both instances which make the historic plates useless as Robin says.

Originally Posted by Robin Craig

Here is a quick answer, don't.

Longer answer, while most cops have far much better things to worry about than investigating whether the Lower Little Podlesham Antique Vehicle and Laundry Mangle Club is a properly constituted entity if you got the one odious one who did go digging do you really want to get screwed over?

Honestly, you are restricting the use of your vehicle for the sake of wearing a plate that identifies the vehicle as being old, why? Those who know what an Iltis is already know. The great unwashed masses of the public wouldn't know the difference between it or an M38 nor do they care.

I come back to the base point, what great advantage or purpose does having that plate get you? A few bucks lower annual renewal fee, well whoo hoo! Most of us have likely blown that saving on this years dud purchase anyway!

Back to you

[chris vickery]

Bruce, regular plate, regular insurance.
Historic plates, vintage insurance
Simple as that.
I asked my provider about usage of historic vehicles and according to him, as long as it was being used periodically, even for a country drive, this falls into the "exhibition/display/parade" category of useage.
I have never heard of any case of someone being charged under the HTA for operating a licensed and insured historic vehicle in a safe manner.
Maybe it has happened but one must remember the "spirit" of any law and the intentions behind it when it was written.
Most guys I know who operate antique vehicles belong to some sort of club or organization to promote their old vehicle. While not a lawyer, I think this would cover the "automobile club" stipulation.
When a guy has a whole shop full of restored vehicles it gets awfully expensive to plate and isure all of them using regular plates.
Also, I have seen trucks over 4500kgs wearing historic plates. Go to any large truck show and check it out.

[Stuart Fedak]

Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak

When I read...

(b) is operated on a highway in parades, for purposes of exhibition, tours or similar functions organized by a properly constituted automobile club ........... and when organizations such as the Ontario Military Vehicle Association (OMVA) do not seem to be interested in sponsoring parades or tours, who do we have left in Ontario that can be a properly constituted automobile club?

I think at one time the local chapters of OMVA could help sponsor events, but it seems those days are gone...... This seems a valuable service that could be done for those who have their vehicles registered as "Historic Vehicles"......

Your thoughts?

Stuart

Chris, I see your signature block still indicates you are President of OMVA, so would you comment on my question above....

Stuart

3RD Echelon Wksp

1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC
1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08669
1971 M38A1 CDN3 71-08889
1953 M38A1 CDN 53-33136
1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer
1953 M101 3/4T CDN trailer
1953 M100 1/4T CDN trailer
1943 Chevy M6 G506
and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and.......

MLU, President-OMVA, MVPA, G503, Willys Forum, Steel Soldiers

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Also, I have seen trucks over 4500kgs wearing historic plates. Go to any large truck show and check it out.

Oh, I have too. I also had a frustrating talk with MTO on the issue. The guy was adamant that the historic provisions did not exempt a vehicle from being 'commercial' based on weight, so the commercial regs applied even it was historic (and, I hate to admit it, a strict reading of the law based on what it says...and doesn't say...with regard to exemptions tends to support this interpretation). I think the trucks you see out there had the owner apply for plates based on age and simply not mention weight, or if they did the licensing office hadn't conferred with my MTO friend. My concern, like any other when dealing with the law and insurance, is that everything goes fine until there is an accident and then all these issues come up and you get in a heap of trouble.