Canadian Ferrets 1975 CFB Meaford

[Robin Craig]

Here are some somewhat grainy images from Mike Jackson.

He shot 16mm at the time and has managed to capture some stills and they are reproduced here.

The interesting details I picked out were the ammo bin on rear right fender, not sure if it is bolted on but I somewhat suspect it is.

Then the telphone wire spool mounted on the side as er the modification instruction and another with one just hangin down front.

The Call sign placards are great, not seen those on Ferrets before in the CF. Wonder if that was a Meaford thing or just 8th Hussars thing?

Love the Ferrets loaded in the backs of the trucks, interesting it is not the smaller capacity deuce but the bigger American version with dual rears wheels

[Robin Craig]

And loaded on trucks

[Robin Craig]

And one more

[rob love]

The trucks are mid 70s 5 ton M800 series with the Cummins 250 diesel. The old GMC M135 would not have safely carried a ferret as it would be pretty close or over the maximum highway capacity. Cross country capacity would be half of that.

They are not traditional call signs on the vehicles. There should be two numbers designating the squadron, then the troop, followed by a letter for the vehicle's position within the recce troop.

[maple_leaf_eh]

The call sign plates are unconventional. The presence of Ferrets in Meaford is unconventional. Do we know anything more about the occasion?

BTW, 16mm film was used in 110-format pocket cameras of the day. One of my first cameras was a 110 cassette, with 20 exposures as probably the best value. The images on those were grainy because the lenses were plastic.

[Dan Martel]

Great movie stills. Would also like to know more about the date the filming was done.

Cheers,
Dan.

[Wayne Hingley]

In post #2, second photo; the vehicle cab in the lower left corner appears to be an M135 (I could be wrong).

[Grant Bowker]

My first thought when M135 was mentioned was that the wheelhouses within the cargo box might be a nuisance. I agree that the cab in post 2 photo 2 might be M135. In post 2 photo 1, the cargo box might have the angle braces ahead and behind the wheelhouse that I associate with the M135 - not sure.

[Ed Storey]

Besides the M813A1 5 ton, the other vehicle could have been a M211 as they had flat cargo floors. Either way, the Ferrets seem to be sitting on something as the wheels are higher then the floor levels of the two cargo bodies.

[Wayne Hingley]

Grant, your observation of the cargo box in post #2 first photo is interesting. The Ferret in that box is sitting higher than the Ferret in the 5-ton behind it. Note the height of cargo box in relation to the axle-hub of the Ferret.

[rob love]

For a timeline I would guess at 1976 or 1977. There are what appears to be Chev 5/4 tons in the background along with a Dodge M152, so it was during the transition. And I think the 5 ton diesels were 1976 vintage, but I can't be sure. They might have been 1974....I'll have to check the EDR viewer.

It well could be that they put a ferret into a regular deuce with the wheelwells, and made the wooden spacers to fit above the wells. We used to do that for Jeeps, but a Jeep only weighs a third of what a ferret weighs. As I said before, you really are pushing the envelope with a ferret in the back of a deuce.

[Ed Storey]

The M813A1 5 Tons were brought into service in Jan 1976.

[Ed Storey]

Here are some images of the various Canadian M Series truck bodies.


M135CDN


M211CDN


M54


M813A1

[Wayne Hingley]

Great photos to compare the various cargo boxes Ed. The M135 box is least like any of the other truck boxes, including the M211. In the post #2 photo, it looks to me like the forward angled rib of the box (over the rear wheel) matches that of the M135.

I agree with Rob... if that is an M135, it has a big load on it's back.

[rob love]

Is that a piece of heavy armour in the background in that photo? Is it a Leo?

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

The M813A1 5 Tons were brought into service in Jan 1976.

Thanks Ed...the grey matter is getting a little greyer these days. I thought that was the year.

[Ed Storey]

It is a Centurion, Canada did not get the Leopard until 1978.

[rob love]

I honestly couldn't tell which tank it was.If it were a Leo, then it would date the photo to 78, but it would be unlikely that a M152 and a Canadian Leo would be on the same ex.

[Robin Craig]

The gent who took the photos says it was 1975 but as he is human like the rest of us he could be wrong, I will ask.

I did put the year in the thread title

[jdmcm]

Not to hijack Robin's thread but does anyone have any more pictures or info on the M813 5 ton in Canadian service?

Thanks
John

[rob love]

I have CFTO's up the wazoo on both 5 ton fleets, including the modifications. Things like the Jake brakes were added in the early 80s, and required the box attached to the top of the hood for clearance.

I'll let you have a dig through when you come through this summer.

The M800 series 5 tons almost deserve their own thread.

[Mike Cecil]

100% sure it is Centurion, as Ed has said.

Tell-tale from the image (rather than the date of the image) is the loader's twin hatch doors opening fore and aft, and long sloping turret top forward of the hatches/cupola.

Leopard has a flat top turret with slight slope at the forward edge to the top of the mantlet, and the loader's hatch is a round cupola with a round single hatch that opens to the rear and lays flat parallel with the turret roof.

Interesting to me is that the Ferrets appear to be fitted with US type radios: was that the common/standard radio fit in CDN ferrets?

Mike

[rob love]

When the regular force went to the US radios instead of the C42 radio, the Ferrets were appropriately modified. It was not a real clean installation. Generally, both the mount brackets and the hulls were torch cut to allow the new AMU and cables to be installed. Much better radios, but then again two different generations of electronics....tubes vs solid state. Thankfully, you did not need to continually re-tune the radio and AMU on the newer stuff like the old C-42, especially in the arctic temps. Nor did you get the hernia trying to lift the US radio in and out of the hull like....damn those 42s were heavy.

[jdmcm]

Thanks Rob, that would be great.

John

[Robin Craig]

Great replies all,

So the US radios you say, what weapon would have been used with the Ferret at that time?

I have been curious about the Bren Vs the .30 cal Browning time period change over. I am thinking the Bren went out when the FN came in, as I assume Canada did not re-barrel their like the British did?

I have to say it is great when pictures like these surface to show that outside the norm happens.

[Ed Storey]

For Canadian machines, the main weapon evolved from .303 Bren, to M1919A4 .30 cal finally to re-chambred .30 cals which became C6 GPMGs. The weapons mount may also have changed.

Crew weapons changed from Stens to C1 SMGs.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

For Canadian machines, the main weapon evolved from .303 Bren, to M1919A4 .30 cal finally to re-chambred .30 cals which became C6 GPMGs. The weapons mount may also have changed.

Crew weapons changed from Stens to C1 SMGs.

You got your numbers mixed up Ed.

The conversion in the late 60s of M1919s to 7.62 made them into C-1 GPMG. A later upgrade in the late 70s/early 80s to some of the design problems would have resulted in the designation becoming C1A1, but, so as not to cause confusion with the rifle (which, of course was the C1A1) the upgraded GPMG became the C5A1. There never was a C5, although that designation does appear on the cover of the last manual.

The C6 was the FN Mag, first procured as part of the Leopard program, and later adopted to replace the C5A1 in service. I was last issued a C5A1 in 1997 at which time they were withdrawn and replaced with the C6.

[Robin Craig]

This is quite clear to me as a Brit, in the same way mud is clear.

Let me try again.

So, personal weapon for crew 1960s through end of service in the 1980 would have been? 9mm Sterling?

Main weapon was .303 Bren up until replacement by .30 Cal Browning but when was change effected?

Sometimes I am dense

[Ed Storey]

I guess understanding the changes first entails using the correct names for weapons. Canada did not use the Sterling, we used the C1 SMG which was a Canadian Arsenals Limited manufactured 9mm SMG with Canadian features not found on British manufactured weapons. Calling a Canadian C1 SMG is like calling a Land Rover a Jeep. The 9mm Mk II Sten was replaced by the C1 SMG around 1960.

Rough dates for the change from .303 Bren to M1919A4 .30 cal - is early to mid-1960s as at this time the 7.62mm FNC2 was also replacing the Bren. The copy I have of C-30-541-000 CJ-001 Car, Armoured, Ferret, Mk I Scout Car, Command Car, Missile Car .30 Browning Machine Gun Kit Installation Instruction is Issue 1 from Oct 1965 so I guess that would be a good indicator of when the official change came in for the Ferret although I have photographs of M1919 armed Ferrets that pre-date this instruction such as this 1964 Cyprus photograph.



As Rob said, the 7.62mm C1 GPMG began in the late 1960s with the C1A1 7.62mm GPMG coming into service about a decade later or just about the time the Ferret was going out of service.

[rob love]

If one looks closely at the GPMG on the Cypress ferret, you can see it is a US .30 cal by the small exit hole for the belt (links) on the right side plate. The 7.62 modification opened that hole up significantly.

I saw a Canadian manual the other day dated around 1953 for the M1919A6.....that would seem to predate the Canadian replacement of the Vickers with the M1919A4 GPMG, which I believe was around 1957 or 1958. The M1919 in it's various forms (M1919A4, C1, C5A1) remained in service with Canada for 40 years.

One thing that could be said of the Canadian army.....it keeps the equipment around for a long long time. Perhaps the one exception is missile systems.

Many of the Canadian M113 FOV are now over 50 years old, although will have been upgraded through 2 major redesigns. I just drove one (a M113A2) out of the shop this afternoon and will be loading it on a flatbed tomorrow to go downtown for a weeklong display. The M109A4+ will follow on Monday.