Aussie WW2 staff cars

[Mike Kelly]

Post#30 the car in the background is a 41 Pontiac, probably a military 'masonite ute' the front guards have a distinctive style. Having owned one for a short while you never forget !

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Lang

I would not be too precious about the staff car history. The only thing that makes them special is the colour (and as I found out the black ones were used by the military though whether impressed, borrowed or on strength I have no idea).

I was trying to get some history from GM and GMH sites and from what I can see the black one has a normal non-military set of codes on the data plates. This does not mean it was never used by the military but leans toward initial civilian ownership whether impressed later or not.

The green one has a government delivery code but this could be for any department including the services so no proof there. I don't really want to be trawling through the AWM records searching for it. It looks to have a sand colour as the base coat on the firewall but GMH had a similar colour on offer for general sale.

Indeed there is a fine line between Conventional and Modified Conventional Pattern Vehicles. Conventional vehicles were just that, with just light alterations from a civilian vehicle like matt olive drab paint, non-chromed trim and some military fitments like black-out lighting. This could vary from contract to contract, depending on where the vehicle was going to put to use. Especially for home front use, these "plain jane" civilian vehicles could be painted in "any colour you like, as long as it is black" as Henry Ford put it.

See this RNZAF Ford Staff Car in the Ford Canada Conventional and Modified Vehicles thread:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

RNZAF 1942 Ford Fordor Staff Car. Location: Fiji.

RHD, black, painted grille and trim - looks like the cheapest no-frills version from the catalog. Reportedly, ten (10) examples of the 1942 Ford V8 Fordor were exported to New Zealand during the Second World War.

Note the census number "MT2230" on the bonnet and license plate "5209" on the front bumper which has retained it's chrome.


Photo courtesy of Air Force Museum of New Zealand

[Mike Kelly]

Laurie Wright was a young teenager in Sydney during the war and he observed the colours of the military vehicles at the time.

Source: http://anzacsteel.hobbyvista.com/oth...siecamlw_1.htm

'Although a bit of an aside from camouflage, but was shown about the same respect, the colour of General Officers’ cars is worth a quick look. According to the “good book”, cars of General Officers were to be coloured black and carry a Commonwealth number plate front and rear. You won’t find many that complied with this instruction, in colour or number plate. Most in fact clung to their AIF plates, and cars were anything from white to grey to camouflaged to two-tone.'


And

'It is obvious that despite the best intentions of those who brought out vehicle camouflage diagrams even as late as 1944, that for most people, camouflage painting was as dead as the Dodo. If it was on it stayed on until the vehicle was repainted. If it wasn’t camouflaged nobody cared. It was common by that time in Sydney to see cars and 12-cwt utilities with a chrome grille, front bumper and trim. It can be seen in photographs, even on some vehicles in New Guinea.'

[Lang]

Thank you Mike for confirmation of black staff cars.

I now have proof of mine in service because I went out and closely inspected the car and discover the initials TB carved with a pocket knife into the rear side window surround. Obviously General Sir Thomas Blamey (Chief of the Australian Military Forces in WW2) was bored being driven to yet another inspection or parade early in the war before he got a more up market staff car.

Lang

[Mike Cecil]

"According to the “good book”, cars of General Officers were to be coloured black and carry a Commonwealth number plate front and rear."

I wonder what 'good book' the late Mr Wright was referring to.

Ministerial cars ie the Commonwealth Govt fleet for senior govt and Departmental heads, were black with C plates. I don't remember seeing any wartime instruction that cars assigned to senior officers were to be black, but I'd certainly be interested to see 'the good book' to correct/change my understanding of that.

Mike

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Lang

Thank you Mike for confirmation of black staff cars.

I now have proof of mine in service because I went out and closely inspected the car and discover the initials TB carved with a pocket knife into the rear side window surround. Obviously General Sir Thomas Blamey (Chief of the Australian Military Forces in WW2) was bored being driven to yet another inspection or parade early in the war before he got a more up market staff car.

Lang

Hi Lang,
Looks like you have struck lucky with that car and got some provenance of a famous user of it !

[Lang]

Yes Richard I have confirmed the carved initials are in Thomas Blamey's handwriting.

[Mike Kelly]

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/a...my%20car%20%22

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/a...my%20car%20%22

[Mike Kelly]

General Mac in PNG with a RHD staff car, appears to be a Pontiac ? ... background car is a Dodge or two Dodge ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trxOmwoKq4c

[Mike Kelly]

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C318012

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C15431

[Mike Kelly]

https://collections.slsa.sa.gov.au/resource/B+21446

[Mike Cecil]

Interesting (unusual) layout of the ARN on 46743, with the gap and hyphen between the 6 and 7. Nice gloss paintwork and shiny chrome fittings, too.

Just as interesting is that this Chev 'Car, 5 passenger, sedan' lasted in service so long, being written-off the books in Korea in October 1954.

Mike

[Lang]

Good one Mike K.

I think I might steal Colonel Southwell's markings.

Had to look hard to see what the horse over the boomerang meant. It is the 2nd Australian Army. We had enough trouble making up one army let alone two, must be another of those phantom on-paper organisations.

lang

[Lang]

Just had a look at the Australian Second Army. It was an organisation that gave various floating and home defence units in NSW, Victoria and South Australia a formation headquarters.

At its peak it had close to 150,000 people under its control including two American Divisions training in Australia, various home defence organisations but particularly many training schools. Initially headquartered in Melbourne but by the time the war finished it had slowly been reduced to mainly defence of the Sydney area and various training schools - a mere shadow of its former self.

Its redesignation as "Training Command" was never completed because of the war's end.


Upon formation in April 1942, the Second Army consisted of the following formations:

2nd Motor Division
Victoria Covering Force
US 41st Infantry Division
US 32nd Infantry Division (joining/arriving)
12th Brigade Group
By August 1943, the formation had been reduced to the following:

1st Division
1st Brigade
9th Brigade
28th Brigade
Commanders
Second Army was initially commanded by Lieutenant General Iven Mackay. In January 1944, the position passed to Lieutenant General Leslie Morshead; he remained until July 1944. That month, Major General Herbert Lloyd assumed administrative command, and he remained in the position until January 1946.

[Mike Kelly]

This pic depicts the many colours of vehicles in use. Although the cars appear to have civilian number plates . The fourth car along is a 39 Dodge/Plymouth sedan .

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C51344

[Mike Cecil]

Hi Lang,

Wiked-pedia seems to have overlooked the 2nd and 3rd Army Tank Battalion Groups (100 tanks each and a pers strength over 90%) plus all the Coast Artillery and Search Light Units, fixed and mobile AA and SL units, AEME, transport units and Volunteer Defence Corps units that were still part of Second Aust Army in August 1943, as well as all the various schools and training establishments, so still a substantial force for the defence of Australia's east and south-east. The OOB list for the operational units is some 12 pages long, whereas the training establishments and units list is only 3 pages.

In 1944, the Formation, which was in the process of being substantially reduced as units re-formed and transited to other commands, also assumed responsibility for units defending South-East Queensland, and the training establishments in that area, such as the Jungle Training School at Canungra.

A nice set of markings to use on your car, Lang, representing an area of the defence forces not often represented on restored vehicles. For those interested, Lt Col Southwell's car carries the Formation sign of Second Aust Army (horse, facing left as viewed, over a boomerang) and the unit sign of the NSW Coast Anti-Aircraft and Coast Artillery Signal unit (white over blue, divided horizontally, unit code numerals in red) which provided signalers to all the fixed defence fortress and AA units. As Second Aust Army shrank, that unit was later re-designated in April 1945 as the Eastern Area AA and CA Signal unit.

Mike

[Lang]

Thanks for the expanded information Mike.

Lang

[Mike Kelly]

Lots of chrome on this one. Maybe it went to a civilian who had the permit , a doctor or similar.

https://collections.slsa.sa.gov.au/r...+213/207/1/271



1941 models ?


https://collections.slsa.sa.gov.au/r...+213/207/1/270



https://collections.slsa.sa.gov.au/r...+213/207/1/268



https://collections.slsa.sa.gov.au/r...+213/207/4/494

[Lang]

Mike

I think you will find the vast majority of staff cars that did not go to the Middle East had the chrome left on them regardless of within Australia or operational areas. Most of the New Guinea staff car photos show chrome fully exposed.

Lang

[Mike Kelly]

Originally Posted by Lang

Mike

I think you will find the vast majority of staff cars that did not go to the Middle East had the chrome left on them regardless of within Australia or operational areas. Most of the New Guinea staff car photos show chrome fully exposed.

Lang

I've seen a pic of AWAS drivers removing the army paint off staff car grills

Rather bad paint job or the sand blast effect !

https://collections.slsa.sa.gov.au/r.../PRG+691/12/15

[Mike Kelly]

Special stuff

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/a...40%20chevrolet

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/a...40%20chevrolet

[Mike Kelly]

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[Mike Kelly]

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[Mike Kelly]

1942..............

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

I've seen a pic of AWAS drivers removing the army paint off staff car grills

Rather bad paint job or the sand blast effect !

https://collections.slsa.sa.gov.au/r.../PRG+691/12/15

Mike, I’ve attached some of the pictures found in your links for future reference (often the archives are rearranged over time)

I like that weathered desert look - “rat look” before the term was invented ;-)

[Lang]

Just finished my first go at 2 pack painting. Turned out OK.

I have fitted 205R16 Toyota Hilux tyres for the Darwin trip, firstly to give me more rubber on the road and secondly to make it possible to find a replacement if needed in Alice Springs. Rims a bit narrow for the radials (with insert "flapper" white wall rings) but I am using tubes so they will not roll off.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Really looking good Lang!

I like your upgrades to make sure the vehicle can be used on long trips. Did you change anything on the drive line? Like adding the 5-speed gearbox to the Chevrolet Panel Van?

[Mike Kelly]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Really looking good Lang!

I like your upgrades to make sure the vehicle can be used on long trips. Did you change anything on the drive line? Like adding the 5-speed gearbox to the Chevrolet Panel Van?

I agree , nice paint job , compared to my efforts ! . Some people fit modern Toyota rims on these Chevs but I guess you can't fit the hub caps on in that case. Not sure if the original rims are 'safety' type with the ridge that reduces the risk of the tyre coming loose under low inflation stress.

[Lang]

Hanno

The only other mods are changing it to 12 volt. Easy change but required an alternator to replace the 6 volt generator. I picked up a single wire (eliminates external voltage regulators) alternator from an old Ford Falcon and it just dropped straight on the original generator mount. The beauty of these is they came with a split pulley and a couple of washers between the pulley faces made it wide enough to match the crankshaft and water pump pulleys so I could remain with the original wide belt.

The globes were all replaced. Starter works fine (in fact 10 times better) on 12 volt and you just need little $7 12-6 volt converters in the windscreen wiper and fuel gauge circuits.

The distributor was very worn and loose, as most of them are at this age, so I have put in a complete after market electronic distributor, not just the half-the-job electronic point conversion in the original distributor. Much cheaper than a replacement original and so much better.

I had one on my Normandy Chevrolet Panel Van and it certainly started and ran like new with no points worries.

Will get the springs reset to lift her up a bit as she is starting to get a bit low and that should be that.

I know some people are critical of such modifications but very few of the purists have any concept of driving an 80 year old vehicle 7,000km on a single trip knocking over 6-700km a day for four days just getting to the start and the same coming home again. As well as most Australians. more than a few Americans and Canadians understand the problem and the bulk of the critical comments come from Europeans. How many times have I been subject to rolling eyes and superior comments from "experts" at Normandy and UK events. We are not hot-rodding our vehicles just using common sense to ensure not only is the journey completed but done with a minimum of drama. You can be sure there will still be drama with the remaining original components at some stage.

Lang

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Lang,

I agree you’re just applying common sense here. Any upgrade to increase reliability and safety should be applauded. Like you say, it’s not like you’re hot rodding it.

Pre-COVID I talked to the owner of a HUP at a swap meet. He was adamant that the original 1941 dated tyres on his truck were much better than new tyres as “they were made with natural rubber which is superior to today’s rubber”

I used to own a 1965 VW Beetle, it ran on old style diagonal tyres. Very original but a nightmare to drive in modern traffic. I quickly replaced them with radial tyres. I got those same looks at shows you got.