Cmp c15a gs - Page 4

Phil Waterman · #91 08-12-11, 15:43

Hi All

The problem of the engine stalling when the clutch is pushed in is an intriguing one. First a question what happens if you screw the idle speed stop screw in so that the engine is held at high idle right at the carb? Does the engine stall when the clutch is pushed in?

If it doesn't - then here is a thought, the engine mounts, all of the bolts, and even the holes in the frame wear. (See picture) the pushing in the clutch can move the entire engine transmission just a little bit. If the engines idle speed is not controlled by the set screw at the carb but instead by one of the others adjustments over riding it this can be a problem.

If the engine stalls even with the idle set to high when the clutch is pushed then try checking the really dumb things that could never be the problem like the grounding of the engine to the frame add a clip lead.

Bobs suggestions are a good check list, take a look at each of the suggestions and give us the results if you would, we all love a mystery.

Cheers Phil

Grant Bowker · #92 08-12-11, 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Keith

Never seen that mod before.....must admit it makes a lot of sense.

Bouncing Bob

Bob,
I'm sure I've seen that style cab roof at the Barn, now to figure out which truck it's on. It's a great thing when we have enough cab roofs that we can't remember which one has a specific feature, other than the CRS aspect.

Joel Culliford · #93 09-12-11, 04:01

The Auto Teacher said today that there is a hole in the gas line. I will keep you up to date on whether this is the problem.

Our Principal has decided that when it is running that he wants to drive it. He is Welsh and says that it will feel like home.

Joel

Phil Waterman · #94 09-12-11, 16:02

Hi Joel and all the students, and teachers working on the CMP.

Make sure you let the Principal get the hook of driving CMPs really set, then reel him in. Strange how a project like this will catch peoples interest.

Keep us posted on the mystery stalling problem.

Cheers Phil

Marc Montgomery · #95 10-12-11, 14:48

dont understand issue re canvas or rubber on hatch pieces.. The hatch wood was pretty good, if not used as is, it is excellent for reproducing. ... hatch pads were either rubber or wood not both...and rubber eventually discontinued due to shortages

Your wood substrates were covered by a thin pad of horsehair, with a canvas folded over and tacked into the back. I would use .5 inch foam at most with the canvas pulled tightly to compress it substantially. the pads were not really soft at all. The padding did not extend into the angled ends as this would create thickness preventing proper mating of the two 45 degree ends of the pieces

The canvas was notched on the ends such that when folded on the back there was little overlap which would have created additional thickness and improper fit to the metal. I thought you got one of the original canvas covers with the hatch?

for running issues...did you check there is no air leak between carb base and manifold?

Joel Culliford · #96 10-12-11, 18:00

Marc

I know there was the canvas, to go over the wood...I could not remember if it is fastened by screwing it between the wood and the metal then folded over and then brought back underneath and is it stapled underneath (forgot about the padding). Just looking for some pictures to make sure I'm doing right. Plus there was a picture a while back that shows a rubber seal, that would seal the hatch when the hatch is closed (picture provided). Wondering how to do that or is it even correct.

Joel Culliford · #97 14-01-12, 06:24

Hey everyone

I have a question, well the students have a question. The temperature gauge, which has the wire attached to it, will not fit into the engine, the rebuild one is the wrong size. I should the threaded piece is the wrong size. Is there a way to just replace the threaded piece some how or does the whole wire have to be replaced?

Oh and does anyone have the dimensions for the canvas on the back? Actually does any have the length and dimensions for the bars that go across for the canvas.

Any help would be greatly appreciated

r.morrison · #98 14-01-12, 07:14

Gentlemen: To help Joel and the High School out....as I just got off the phone tonight with him.... to clarify a couple of areas!! He has an oil gage, which has a sensor line or tube running to the engine block. The fitting that connects with the engine block, has a ball bearing inside it. AND that fitting does not fit the engine block, because the ball bearing does not fit into the block. This is a rebuilt unit, don't know the details, but any suggestions as to whether it should be returned to the "rebuilder" or we have the wrong fitting on the block.

Secondly....working on some donated parts for this project, however, Joel needs a pattern for the bows for the GS box and a supplier of canvas for the back. The 2 suggestions that I gave him was Brian Asbury and his surplus " to be altered tarps", that might be remade to suit this unit's needs. And the second was the "Great and Mr. Canvas.......Stewart Loy".

So the bottom line here, as far as Bows and Canvas, who in the Niagara Peninsula/ Toronto Area can provide a wee bit of help with patterns and measurements. As far as the oil guage.....your comments please. Kind regards to all ...Robert...

Bob Moseley (RIP) · #99 14-01-12, 08:34

Hi guys - I am a bit confused re. this gauge. Is it an electrical one that has a WIRE running to the sensor or is it a mechanical one that has a CONDUIT (TUBE) running to the sensor. Is it a round gauge or one of four that is in an instrument cluster with the half moon speedometer?

Secondly Joel, I will send you a new switch and plate to replace the one you had nicked.

Bob

Bob Carriere · #**100** 15-01-12, 04:01

I think Joel has a "Classic problem" with the temperature gauge.......

We have had the same problem at the barn.

Assuming I understand his temp. guage problem.

On the original 216 it has a large steel fitting that accommodates the steam tube to the front rad and on top a hole where the four sided fitting that holds the brass bubble tigth into the steel fitting and allows a temp reading for the gauge.

Well on rebuilt engines they don't usually come with that old style steel fitting and you have to use a modern brass fitting..... the problem is that modern temp guages do not have the same style tappered fitting and the old bubble and square nut/fitting form the CMP guages will not fit.....and modern after market temp guage will not fit the old style CMP steam fitting...... both Grant and I have had headaches on that one.

My solution was to fit a modern brass fitting into the head of the 261.... then a male/male fitting to a T brass fitting..... on side goes to the steam tube the top part accepts the brass fitting form the modern guage........ BUT what do I do when the origianl dash instrument guages cluster gets connected....?

I do have an original steel steam fitting that will fit the original CMP cab 11 cluster and may have to dismantle my temporary plumbers nightmare....

So my question is........ Joel.... do you have the original large size steel fitting that goes into the head of your modern 235.....?

Would pictures help ........?

Bottom line is if you want to use the original CMP temp guage.... whcih I assume is working and you tested it by dropping your guyage bulb in boiling water to see if the needle moves...... you will need and old fashion steel steam fitting....... it is the only thing that will fit on the old tappered surfaces of the guage brass bulb.......

Bob

Bob Carriere · #**101** 15-01-12, 04:09

This is the plumber's nightmare I adapted on my 261 to allow the use of a modern Princess auto temp guage to the 261 block.

Since that picture was taken the 1/4 turn valve has been removed and a proper 3/8 copper tube with heat shield has been added...... the valve was just an experiment to see what would happen if the engine was run and the valve closed...... interesting to see all the air/bubbles froth that came out towards the radiator when the engine had been running for a few minutes..... a lot of air seems to build up inside the head..... which convinced me that the tube should be open and allowed to flow all the time to prevent air pockets.

I will have pictures of the infamous large original steel fitting that was installed on 216 CMP engines tomorrow......

Keep warm..... 'tis colder than a mother-in-law's heart tonight.

Bob

r.morrison · #**102** 15-01-12, 05:12

Thanks 2 Bobs for your insight. I may have to add this item to Joel's wish list. But I'll double check with the 2 Bobs first. Mr "not so mechanically inclined"......... Robert (Bob)

Phil Waterman · #**103** 15-01-12, 17:44

There seems to be a huge variability in the size and location of the temperature sender on the Chevy inline 6. The original 216 engines from all three of my CMPs had the large tapped location rear of the block for the steam relief tube and temperature sender. The recent 1941 replacement NOS head I got for my HUP has only the smaller tapped location about 6" further forward, between cylinders 5&6. My 235 engine has the same small tapped location but it also has a cast boss for the other tapping directly over the #6 exhaust port. While the 261 has the large hole tapped at the forward position between 5&6.

Picture below shows the 235 head before cleaning, and yes this cleanup and is on the 235 engine now.

I have found inexpensive replacement gauges which had a full set of adapter busing to use with the different size tappings.

The steam relief tube is not needed in most conditions except for real steep up and down hill off roading. When the rear of the block may get to hot to quickly and form a steam bubble before the heat causes the thermostat to open fully.

So to some questions: How many people actually ever open the valve?
Lacking the large tapped hole for the steam tube and temperature sensor has any body used heater tube tap on the thermostat housing at the front of the engine?

What ever happened with the problem of the truck stalling when the clutch was pushed in? Has the problem been solved?

Cheers Phil

Joel Culliford · #**104** 16-01-12, 04:49

They believe it was a leak in the gas line, though they haven't tested it yet. One of the students is using the CMP as his final exam and decided that wiring it up would be what he would do. This means that there will be new students at the beginning of February working on it. I will try to get a complete update on everything that is going on with it. The problem is the students sometimes start a job but move on to something else that catches there eye...I don't mind but it can make for a long to do list, but I understand.

Joel

Bob Carriere · #**105** 17-01-12, 04:09

here is a pic of the bulb on an original 216 CMP temp gauge..... that screwy square nut will not fit on most modern brass fittings and when it does it does not allow the funny odd tapper on the bulb to fit modern brass fittings..... so it leaks..... the Barn as no solution yet to that dilemna...... maybe a hand made lead washer....???? comments

Bob

Phil Waterman · #**106** 17-01-12, 15:53

Hi Bob

I have seen the adapters for this on line within the last month. I'll try and find them again they came with a generic replacement gauge unit.

I book marked the site but my browser favorites list got misplaced in a recent computer rebuild, but I'm pretty sure it is on my backup drive.

Was looking for the fittings because I wanted to install multiple thermometers on the HUPs rebuilt engine while I'm running it in on the test stand. Wanted the normal rear of the head, just under the thermostat using the heater tap, and the radiator return temp at the water pump using the other heater tap.

Cheers Phil

Phil Waterman · #**107** 17-01-12, 19:29

Hi

This is the type of kit I was talking about, this one is on NAPA http://napaprolink.com/detail.aspx?R...975_0330718988 it cost about $72.00 not the cheap version I as mentioning though which I think was more like $20 bucks

The three bushings included lets you use the normal sender unit in a variety of applications and yes the bushings with the gauge I have fit the standard CMP Chevy gauge sender. See the photo below with old CMP sender bulb installed in thermostat housing tap.

I'll keep looking for another source.

Cheers Phil

Phil Waterman · #**108** 17-01-12, 21:43

Found the one I was talking about its from Sunpro

http://www.sunpro.com/product_detail.php?pid=16300

CP8207 Sunpro Style Line Mechanical Water/Oil Temperature Gauge -

2" white face dial
100° - 250° F scale
270° dial sweep
Features chrome bezel with removable chrome panel
Includes lighting and mounting hardware
Includes 72" capillary tubing with 5/8" NPT thread
and 1/4”, 3/8”, and 1/2” adapters
Includes 12 Volt internal lighting
Designed for 12 Volt negative ground systems
(12 Volts required for dial illumination only)
Includes user manuals in English, Spanish and French

I got mine from the Advance Auto Parts store $17.99 think there is also a Black Face one.

chris vickery · #**109** 17-01-12, 23:49

RE: Tarps and Bows
Perhaps I can offer some insight to this issue.
When I rebuilt my 12 cab Ford 15cwt, I required bows as well. NOS or even original ones are difficult to come by. Brian Asbury was kind enough to loan me the use of an original in order to o btain the measurements and details that I needed to replicate some.
If I recall correctly, I used regular 3/4" black gas pipe, an electrical hickey and some good old fashioned elbow grease. Now, I think that I may have also made each bow in 2 pieces, welded at the center top. It is difficult to bend one piece of pipe to obtain the exact dimensions from center to the leg down on each end. I bent two pieces leaving extra from the bend on each side of the leg and measured and cut to size matching up against the original as a pattern. The bends at the top are not 90deg, as the center also has some hip to it (the center of the bow is taller than the outside corners)
When I welded in the center, I fitted a plug that was ground to fit inside, torch bent to the correct hip angle and cut the ends with a slight taper to facilitate the hip angle. I also laid the pieces on a very flat floor area in order to tack weld in the correct position and square.
Part ways down each leg is also a pin which the bracing fits onto. I believe it was 3/8". I used a machinists v-block with a modified clamp which utilized a drill bushing in order to squarely drill the holes for the pins in the right area.
I also made the bracing, this requires an industrial press capable of flattening the ends of 3/4" gas pipe. Holes are drilled in the ends of the braces as well to fit over the pins in the bows.
I never fitted a tarp, but, I do know quite a few guys that had NOS duece tarps cut and sewn to fit. They are a lot cheaper and more readily available than NOS 15cwt tarps or even repros.

Bob Carriere · #**110** 18-01-12, 04:23

...... from Grant and myself....... I still have my large original steel steam fitting which I can eventually substitute........

Will be hunting for Sunpro or NAPA to see what we can find in Ottawa....

All I know is that two different cheap (China?) makers both at Princess AUto and CDN tire would not take the old CMP square nut fitting...... Spring will tell how it fits.......

Chris......... why did you use 3/4 gas pipe instead of the lighter electrical conduit....???? I like the idea of doing it in two piece then welding for proepr size.....

Bob

Alex Blair (RIP) · #**111** 18-01-12, 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

...... from Grant and myself....... I still have my large original steel steam fitting which I can eventually substitute........

Will be hunting for Sunpro or NAPA to see what we can find in Ottawa....

All I know is that two different cheap (China?) makers both at Princess AUto and CDN tire would not take the old CMP square nut fitting...... Spring will tell how it fits.......

Chris......... why did you use 3/4 gas pipe instead of the lighter electrical conduit....???? I like the idea of doing it in two piece then welding for proepr size.....

Bob

Bob..
If you want I have a hicky for bending thin wall that will work for those bows..
If you want it stop in ..Let me know when you are coming so that I am home.

Bob Carriere · #**112** 19-01-12, 03:27

.... I always wanted to borrow and play with some one else's hicky....

Does it come with instructions......... I just may take you up on the offer.

I have seen repros done with electrical tubing and when compared to the original it looks very similar and about the same wall thickness.

Will have to get together at the barn when the weather gets a bit warmer so we can catch up on Winter gossip.

Thanks Alex.

Bob

chris vickery · #**113** 19-01-12, 04:01

Bob, quite frankly electrical tubing is crap.... and wimpy

The original bows were a much heavier wall than todays standard electrical tubing. Galvanized tubing is just not right, harder to weld nicely etc and for those of you who know me, I really try hard to use as close as possible to original material when I repro any items for my veh restos....

Bob Carriere · #**114** 19-01-12, 04:24

Can anyone psot the size of the original tubing....OD....ID.... wall tickness..!

Thanks

Bob

cletrac (RIP) · #**115** 19-01-12, 16:36

It's the same size as the galvanized stuff, but just black pipe.

Alex Blair (RIP) · #**116** 20-01-12, 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by cletrac

It's the same size as the galvanized stuff, but just black pipe.

Hi Bob..
Here are the dimensions for black pipe..You would probably be looking at schedule 40 Standard pipe..comes in 22' lengths..

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/st...ions-d_43.html

You would never bend schedule 80 pipe with a hand bender..

My bender would be for 1/2 conduit so probably 1/2" black would be the biggest it would bend.(.84" O.D.)

We could check it out if you drop in..I have 1/2" gas pipe here.

Bob Carriere · #**117** 20-01-12, 02:36

....12 ton hydraulic pipe bender from Princess Auto....... with various size dies. Been waiting to really try it.......

Bob

Joel Culliford · #**118** 20-01-12, 03:37

Ok, so what is the length of each bow and the angles of the bends?

Joel Culliford · #**119** 24-01-12, 05:09

Well, I was told by one of the female students that the horn was the coolest things on the truck and that I needed to post a video of it. I couldn't say no

Joel

http://www.flickr.com/photos/21551209@N07/6751389857/

r.morrison · #**120** 24-01-12, 05:54

So after all this discussion, can anyone supply templates for the bows???? Where the hell did the horn come into this??? Robert