Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Lang]

Here are some photos out of the Holden book taken at GMH factories in Australia. Looks like 3 different colour schemes.

Lang

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

Has Tony been searching the NAA web site ?

Not lately Mike. I downloaded some files after Gina posted the links here, but that was over two years ago. I’ve studied them over time so I’m quite familiar with most of them.

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

I have . This late 1942 document is revealing to say the least .

Yes it’s in one of the files I downloaded. It may be one that Gina arranged to have scanned. The minutes of the paint meeting make for interesting reading.

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

In effect ,the paint manufacturers are saying to the Govt. Even if we share our paint formulas , there is no guarantee the outcome will be a standard colour

Well, the colour must be correct when supplied, ie. match the colour chip held by purchasing authorities, otherwise it would be rejected. That’s all we’re interested in here – the INITIAL colour applied to the vehicle. Obviously there were problems with fading, which are well documented, eg. following comments from HQ First Army in late ‘42:

“None of the camflg paints used have been found durable, regardless of the make. All colours fade in 6 months, some fade in 4 weeks. The quality of the paints is in fact so poor that from a concealment point of view it would be better if the vehs were left the original khaki green as they come from the factory.”

That’s why Army sought to have camo applied during production, using their own military spec paint, ie. Dulux 21-line alkyd enamel. DHS spec was worthless, as the meeting clearly shows, and Dakin’s postwar report records:

“Copies of the original Australian paint specifications are appended. They proved almost useless in practice. A revision of the Flat Oil Paint specification in February, 1943 should indicate the difficulties of achieving satisfactory results under the first specifications.”

Also:

“An account has already been given of the meetings in Sydney and Melbourne which led to the issue of Colour Standards and Specifications. The colour Standards remained as permanent features of value, but the Specifications turned out to be almost useless. It was found that even keeping within the specifications the quality of the paint made by different firms varied exceedingly.”

In view of our present quest I find Dakin’s words quite prophetic: “The colour Standards remained as permanent features of value.”

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

I hope the link works .

Yep, worked for me.

[Lang]

Mike

There is a lot more to that letter than first appears. They don't say colour can not be standard but "quality" with reference to bad service on fibro buildings.

Who was on this deputation - I bet it was the big operators. They are wanting the Paint Manufacturers "union" (Australian Camouflage Paint Committee) to be able to allocate orders to various manufacturers ie amongst themselves, not the Government supply agency, who merely will give them the requirement.

Under today's laws I think the ACCC might be having a close look at corporate collusion and cartel activity. Vehicle paint is just a drop in the bucket, we are talking about millions of gallons for buildings, ships, equipment and structures as well.

The little remark at the end about lowest tenderer is a non-too subtle attempt to allow them to jack up prices.

It is all dressed up in patriotic language but a cynical view might be that the centralization of paint supply in the hands of the suppliers, not the government, may or may not improve quality but it would certainly allow the manufacturers to place huge group orders with component suppliers for better prices ("we are the only show in town now so you must give us a deal because there is nobody else to sell to"). It also would give the cartel the ability to force the little guys to toe the line on selling price or they would not get any orders allocated to them.

They suggested a fixed price. What would that be? Of course it would be the price the expert Paint Manufacturers Association recommended to the government purchasing people, while weeping about cutting cost to the bone.

I can see why the military and government supply people went along with the idea to have the paint manufacturers regulate the whole paint supply business, it made things easier all around. Meanwhile the paint companies' profits climbed. Wars are expensive things.

The letter from the Army to the minister basically, but very politely, said "We don't give a rat's where it comes from so long as it comes and it is the responsibility of the supply chain"

Lang

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Lang

Here are some photos out of the Holden book taken at GMH factories in Australia. Looks like 3 different colour schemes.

Lang

Hi Lang,
I would think that the Bedford QL is actually in the UK camouflage pattern as it left the factory in Luton, as the WD Census number on the door is painted over it. Other photos of these gun tractors in Australian service have their own numbers applied.

Richard

[Jacques Reed]

Good Day All,

It has been very informative following this active thread after it has been relatively quiet for a while.

Makes you realize even something as simple as the supply of paint in wartime can have a great background story to it. The conflict between different organizations in particular.

Just a quick aside, since this is a Canadian forum, attached is a roof of a Ford Australia CMP truck still showing what I believe to be the original disruptive camouflage pattern. It is shown wet from being washed down after I obtained it so the colours are more vibrant than when it was dry.

Look forward to more info coming to light via this thread.

Cheers,

[Keith Webb]

Here's something similar but a bit more weathered on a piece of cab 12. What is evident is the brush strokes on the disruptive colour.

[Mike Kelly]

This is the two green camo on the side of the Morris PU. The yellow desert paint has mostly fallen off and only little bits are left .

The blue/grey is the paint Lanes Motors applied , its mostly gone .

The C8 I bought in 1981, had the camo on the roof, a green and what looked like a brush applied black or very dark grey

[Mike Kelly]

This is a good read . From around 1980 , it is aimed at US restorers but there are a few helpful tips for most MV restorers.

[Lang]

Colour shot Chevrolet Milne Bay July 1942

https://youtu.be/qRbVppxXs2k?t=116

[Mike Kelly]

If anybody in Victoria is interested in buying the silicon powder. There is a industrial/pottery supplier in Dandenong South that sells 20kg bags of the fine grade silicon as well as many other materials involved with the pottery/ceramics field.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Mike

Couple times I have come across or had a can of the paint flattening compound dry out. Have had very good luck making the big lump usable again by regrinding it. Simply dropped the chunks into a food blender, close lid and hit blend. Just kept repeating until the entire quart was reduced back to fine powder. Put powder in fresh can added enamel reducer then mixed with color strain and paint.

Before someone asks no not the blender from the kitchen, an old one. They are often cheap at yard sales. Have also used the same process on old military paint that has skimmed over in the can. Not for painting vehicles but for painting non-critical things like gas cans, tables etc. Seems to work well and last.

One comment in general on painting with flattened paint, only put the fattening in the top coat, so under color layer provides a good seal.

Cheers Phil

[Tony Wheeler]

By geez you blokes are keen mixing your own paint! Sounds a bit messy to me so I'll probably leave it to the pros. I've seen Gina's Florite product on Keith's gun tractor and it looks awesome to me. Finish is dead flat, best I've ever seen. This to my mind is the key to authenticity, just as important as colour, if not more so.

[Bob Carriere]

Thanks for the excellent read.

In the late 70s there was a powder sold by paint suppliers called "Velveteen" which we mixed one to one.....but a quart of the powder was more than the paint. Based on old tales, using plain old gasoline * with no ethyl added) also made the paint duller.

From experience at the Barn nothing beats a drill driven paint mixer for old settled paint.Just recently we had to revive old NOS Randolph paint...... the residue was in there tight enough to free up the plastic propeller on the drill. We had to poor out half the can to make room for mixing......the two gallons were eventually mixed with a larger metal plaster mixer with all the paint in an old kitchen stock pot. Eventual yield....2 1/2 gallons....with added reducer.... we then screen the paint before filling the gun cup using standard fine mesh paint shop paper filters and still a light coating of the solids will eventually plug up the screen....so filters are used only once.

I have some 6 or 7 quarts of orange yellow lead paint..... quarts are heavy and very old but still liquid...... one of these days will have to try an old kitchen blender as suggested by Phil to revive it has it is now "verbotten".

Bob C

[Mrs Vampire]

Now available

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/Sear...B=516462&T=PDF

Series A705
Control Symbol 211/9/430
Item Title [Transport - Trailers, Tractors, W4 A-C-G Trolleys] - Camouflage of service M/T [Mechanical Transport] vehicles [2cm]
RAAF

BAR CODE 516462

Interesting discussion on the progress of camouflage painting being slowed due to lack of supplies from stores depots.... and that 1sd had dispatched most of the required paint 16 2 1942 ...putting the issue of local supply, for the RAAF at least, in some doubt and specifies KGJ somewhat confusingly as KGJ.3 perhaps referring to a further iteration of KGJ as not being gas resistant

However further comments make it clear KGJ is the shade being referred to

[Mrs Vampire]

Tony Wheeler

Can you direct me to the reference where KG3 is darkened ...I had not heard of this before. I am aware of a Darkening of KGJ in 1942 but not KG3

[Mrs Vampire]

A confounding thing about the quality of paint contentions....

Several here have put the view that the paint was of poor quality Tony for instance and Mike.

The original specification for the paint was always Alkyd. Dulux did not have any great claim to making Alkyd paint following a patent ruling in 1935 it was available for anyone to manufacture.

Berger , Taubmans , for instance.

As for its durability I point to the photographs of extant artifacts in this thread and wonder if the paint was so bad how come so much of it is still evident even to the extent of determining colour and pattern. some seventy years after application and after continuous exposure to the elements in most cases.

It would appear that the physical evidence would suggest a very high quality product

[Mike Cecil]

Gina,

If making reference to an NAA file, please put the barcode in the reference much quicker to locate that way.

Thanks

Mike

[Lang]

Gina

Mike's letter of September 1942 clearly states that there have been, and continue to be, quality and standardisation issues.

It is a report on a meeting attended by The Australian Camouflage Paint Committee" (the manufacturers) and the Directorate of Camouflage. You can write off user complaints as being for poor application, harsh conditions, bad paint storage methods etc but it seems to me this is first hand evidence from the horse's mouth not anecdotal.

It would have taken some considerable time before these issues were addressed, if ever. Are there any other documents to indicate complete industry-wide standard formulation and industry controlled contract allocation as envisaged at this meeting?

Lang

[Mike Kelly]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

As for its durability I point to the photographs of extant artifacts in this thread and wonder if the paint was so bad how come so much of it is still evident even to the extent of determining colour and pattern. some seventy years after application and after continuous exposure to the elements in most cases.

It would appear that the physical evidence would suggest a very high quality product

A good point . But it depends on where and how the artifacts were stored eg outside or in a shed and the climate as well .

The recent ( 1990's) Wattyl industrial enamels ( alkyd based I think ) used to fade and go chalky after about 2 summers outdoors. I painted a Holden HR ute in Wattyl bronze green , initially a full gloss, after 2 years outside it had changed to a matt dull green.

[Lang]

If you want to settle any argument about formulas, components, dates and changes to paint, with particular application to Australia, this is the definitive work. Includes company histories for the main players.

http://www.cffet.net/ait/X1_paint.pdf

[Lang]

Here are the full minutes of the meeting Mikes document precis.

It is quite clear that in late 1942 the paint quality situation in Australia was causing extreme agitation. The users were complaining, as mentioned many times throughout this meeting.

Just because the government puts out a specification, despite the belief of many, it will not guarantee either uniform manufacture or even "fit for purpose".

The manufacturers stated that no matter how rigid the formula control was at each factory the paint would never be identical under full scientific analysis because of manufacturing differences.

The whole meeting was convened because of poor quality problems. The manufacturers stated they were getting formulas from the contracts board for X quantity of paint and making to those formulas but had absolutely no idea whether the paint was being applied to "buildings or silk". They felt some of the failures were due to lack of consultation with the manufacturers and a one size fits all belief from the contracts board.

Lots more very interesting reading.

Bottom line is the camouflage paint being supplied at that time was not consistent and poor enough to cause numerous complaints and an industry wide meeting to try to fix it.

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/NAAM...=3367640&T=PDF

Lang

[Mike Kelly]

I think the paint quality would have varied from brand to brand, and as the war progressed resources were stretched. Some of it was poor quality and other brands may have been more acceptable . You would think the factory applied vehicle paint would have been a reasonable quality and it would have been sourced from the pre-war paint contactors eg DLX KHAKI as used by GMH early on.

This pic shows a interesting scheme ! Can anybody make a guess at the colours ? The door script I think is: Presented by THE EMPLOYEES OF Treadways Four Stores . Treadways was a chain store in Melbourne , selling groceries I think.

[Lang]

Mike

The factory paint was put on after proper preparation - clean surface, primer, undercoat and top coat, maybe several coats.

Any subsequent repaint risked a not perfectly clean surface (most respray photos show outside operations) but more importantly they were just top coat on top coat. This is guaranteed to fail as anyone who has ever bought a resprayed car from a dodgy operator will tell you - even if they used $100 a litre paint given to them by the Rolls Royce dealer.

Neither yours nor Keith's body panel photos are proof of quality or long life. Apart from unknown storage conditions and climate, your vehicle paint was hermetically sealed by a coat of grey when it was almost new, Keith's also appears to be over painted with a grey, jet blasted? off in the right shot. The upside is, because they were sealed they are probably a good indication of colour.

Lang

[Mrs Vampire]

Originally Posted by Lang

Gina

Mike's letter of September 1942 clearly states that there have been, and continue to be, quality and standardisation issues.

It is a report on a meeting attended by The Australian Camouflage Paint Committee" (the manufacturers) and the Directorate of Camouflage. You can write off user complaints as being for poor application, harsh conditions, bad paint storage methods etc but it seems to me this is first hand evidence from the horse's mouth not anecdotal.

It would have taken some considerable time before these issues were addressed, if ever. Are there any other documents to indicate complete industry-wide standard formulation and industry controlled contract allocation as envisaged at this meeting?


Lang

as the file points out those deficiencies were discovered and as the file shows were addressed...the paint ,manufactures who were at fault fixed the problem and that's my point . There were complaints about the quality of some paints particularly from Taubmans in Victoria the issue was addressed and rectified.

Mike Kelly ..I agree it depends on how and where the vehicles were stored...Inside for most of us would seem an extraordinary stroke of luck...the pictures in this thread are as far as I can tell from vehicles that were parked outside without protection . I think its a long bow to assert the paint was poor quality when we rely on 75 year old examples of extant paint samples like these to make our case for colour pattern ect

Sorry Mike Cecil I thought a direct link to the file was quickest of all ....I will pop the bar code in it for you none the less. I thought paying the 245 bucks to put it on line and supplying the link was generous enough ......

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

This pic shows a interesting scheme ! Can anybody make a guess at the colours ?

Yes Mike it's Set No.4 but they've used the Lorry chart instead of the Van chart, presumably because the Van depicted is exceedingly short!

Set No.4 was quite widely used in early '42 until Light Stone proved to be too conspicuous in Australian landscapes. This became more obvious when summer ended and the countryside greened up.

[Mike Kelly]

The factory paint was put on after proper preparation - clean surface, primer, undercoat and top coat, maybe several coats.
Yes that's generally true but:

I am having a dig at the Canadians now ha ha ! The NOS cab 12 Ford doors I purchased from Camberwell, these doors had a green painted directly over bare steel , no primer at all , I was amazed that the bare steel inside the doors had no signs of rust .

Getting back to the poor paint , I doubt that they had actually totally solved this poor quality problem until well into 1943 or 1944, that's if they ever did finally solve it . There would have been thousands of vehicles painted in the lower quality paint before the army's complaints were looked into.

Reading the NAA files. There is a message from a navy destroyer ( Stuart I think ) asking their HQ, something like this 'what type of camoflage paint, if any , should we paint our ship with '

[Lang]

Gina

Just had a read of your link put up yesterday giving the RAAF side of camouflage. Talk about herding cats!

The instructions in the beginning of the file coming out in 1941 clearly laid out what is required for the army (until they modified them time and again).

The RAAF, who had thousands of vehicles, decided to do their own thing, coming up with their own colours and patterns and being continuously - or attempted to - brought back into line by Dakin and Co. They still modified his instructions.

Well into 1943 the RAAF had had enough of bad durability and wanted to have their own paint using "the Army Khaki Green J.3"

The Commander of North East Area (the biggest operational RAAF area) said as late as 1943 "We are not painting camouflage, all our vehicles will be overall green" And if you look at photos of RAAF vehicles, even in the islands, the great majority of them are.

Western Australian area wrote an indignant letter saying they had beautifully camouflaged their ambulances according to instructions to find bloody great white circles and red crosses on them!

I particularly like the camouflage painting of the hired Vacuum Oil tankers being used on airfields. Vacuum offered to paint them for the RAAF for $6 each. The RAAF replied no thank you we have a system going and will paint them in water based paint which can be removed when you get the vehicles back.

Hidden in the file is a note "Oops! we already painted them with oil paint before you told us to use water paint."

No plan ever survives the first shot!

An interesting point is the the air observation tests with various patterns came up with the best concealment being plain green trucks both on tree lines and in the open - better than the camouflage schemes.

I was personally involved in air observation of Australian vehicles testing the changeover from the plain khaki green to the current camouflage. Out of about 8 different schemes the plain green came out on top in almost every test. What a wonderful colour that slightly grey green was for the Australian bush, many is the time we stumbled around in the shrubbery trying to find where we had parked our Landrovers. They had an agenda so we now have the second placed camouflaged vehicles.

Lang

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Jacques Reed

roof of a Ford Australia CMP truck still showing what I believe to be the original disruptive camouflage pattern.

Indeed it is Jacques – Khaki Green No.3 with Light Earth disruptive applied in production. As shown previously these were Dulux 21-line finishes supplied in Australia by B.A.L.M. and their Adelaide subsidiary United Australasian Paint Co. Thanks for posting this image which illustrates so well the extreme durability of these military spec alkyd enamel finishes.

In terms of vehicle numbers and types this was by far the most extensively used camouflage scheme of the war, and although it was superseded in March ’43 under SM 4809, instructions were that vehicles already camouflaged were not to be repainted unless moving into operational areas. Hence we commonly see vehicles still in this scheme late in the war. Rarely however do we get to see the roof pattern! I’ve not seen pattern charts for Cab 13 but they appear to have been based on existing Cab 12 patterns.

Cheers!

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

Tony Wheeler

Can you direct me to the reference where KG3 is darkened ...I had not heard of this before.

Already posted Gina! Refer my post #341 a few days back.

[Mike Cecil]

Sorry Mike Cecil I thought a direct link to the file was quickest of all [only if it works reliably, which it didn't, as I was downloading on a slow system in backwoods Montana, and it wouldn't complete the task. Not everyone is connected on a quick system (see Tony Wheeler's post below, for example). By going direct to the NAA site and tapping in the barcode, I was able to look at the on-line copy, not download the large pdf which was the link you provided]

I will pop the bar code in it for you none the less. [thank you]

I thought paying the 245 bucks to put it on line and supplying the link was generous enough ...... [actually, the $245 was to have the file copied so you could see it on line, rather than having to travel to Canberra to look at it. The generous part was telling us where it was, which I and I'm sure others appreciate. All files, once a copy request is received by NAA, are placed on line at the requester's expense, like it or not.

And have you considered that the file was already open [O] and not 'NYE', so you were able to order it and have it copied without the 3 month delay while it was examined and cleared? You can thank me for that: I had it cleared in the 1970s or 80s, long before Recordsearch came along (it's entry in my research index is P98, so very early in my research of that topic).

Good luck with your book, Gina, I'll look forward to reading it.

Mike