Info needed: 1967 M38A1 Lubrication?

[Les Kovacs]

New to MLU and require info as to lubricants used in a stock 1967 M38A1-many websites-original manual and lots of confusing info out there...so here goes.

Motor oil?

Transmission/Transfer case?

Steering box?

Axles?

And....front wheel/axle universals/hubs?

Many thanks.

lk

[rob love]

Motor oil: When I was in the military we made a bunch of changes in the oil used. First it was 10W in the winter and 30W in the summer. Later we went to 10W30, and in the early 80s changed over to 15W40 all year round. The 15W40 was actually kind of heavy for the winter. Since those days, the oils have changed specifications many times, and with the removal of the zinc in the last decade from the gasoline specification, I would recommend either 10W30 with a Zinc additive, or 10W30 high mileage oil like you get from Cdn tire. Better yet would be to use oil meant for diesel engines, but that will somewhat limit most of your choices to the 15W40 class of oil. If your vehicle is primarily a summer vehicle, you actually would be fine with a diesel 15W40.

For the gearboxes, 80W90 gear oil will do just fine. We used an older specification of oil back then, so a GL3 rated oil would be best, but quite frankly you won't have any problems with a GL4 in a Jeep.

We used to use gear oil in the steering boxes, but we also used to change a lot of steering boxes for seals and wear. I would recommend a mix of grease and oil to the consistency of thick soup.

Steering knuckles were just grease, automotive, artillery. The army went to a synthetic Grease, Artilery and Automotive in the late 80s, and it was very good. I cannot say the same for the earlier non-synthetic stuff. The synthetic had a much wider range of operating temperature, resists water better, and maintains it's consistency. Any regular tubes of multi-purpose grease will work out fine, but I would suggest picking one, doing the complete cleaning of bearings and knuckles and repacking, and then sticking to that one grease.

There are likely going to be a couple of problem areas with your first major lubrication of your Jeep. The first will be your rear wheel bearings. They are not oil fed, they are greased. It is a fairly major job to remove the axles and repack those bearings. Odds are that when you open it all up, you are going to find that the bearings have not been repacked in a very very long time and will be pitted. It is more a job for a mechanic experienced with Jeeps than a driveway job. You'll need a special puller for the hubs on a Cdn2, and you'll also have to remove the brake lines form the backing plates. Almost invariably, the brake lines will be rusted to the cylinder, so you will break them. You'll need inner seals, outer seals, a press to install the rear bearings, and a dial gauge and the shim kit to properly pre-load the end play on the bearings. This job is not for the novice. A 5 pound hammer is not a substitute for pullers and presses. And ignoring those rear bearings will only eventually result in either the bearings seizing up, or burning up and an axle coming out the side of the vehicle when it's not supposed to. Undertorquing the large nut on the end of the axle can result in the hub working loose form the shaft, and requiring a new axle shaft and hub.

The next thing your jeep will likely need, and you will find this if you go to re-pack the front axle U joints, will be the king pin bearings. They tend to rust and pit from neglect. That is another fairly involved project, and you will want a good set of digital calipers or a micrometer to set up your shim paks, along with a spring scale to set up the preload.

Odds are your bellcrank will also need attention beyond greasing.

The fortunate thing about a Cdn2 is that replacement parts are common, there is very little that you cannot buy for them off places like ebay or any of the multitude of Jeep suppliers. Even the closed shackle kits are now being produced.

[Wayne Hingley]

Originally Posted by rob love

...I would recommend either 10W30 with a Zinc additive, or 10W30 high mileage oil like you get from Cdn tire. Better yet would be to use oil meant for diesel engines, but that will somewhat limit most of your choices to the 15W40 class of oil. If your vehicle is primarily a summer vehicle, you actually would be fine with a diesel 15W40.

Further to Rob's comments on engine oil for Diesels, Shell makes a Rotella 10w30 for Diesel engines. I have been using it in my tractor. I'm not sure what exactly is in the additive pack , but I will try to find out, as I may begin using that oil in my jeep.

[rob love]

The diesels have the normal amounts of ZDDP, now lacking in the modern gasoline oils. That is hard on the flat tappets, although more so in the high compression engines with more radical cams.

[Les Kovacs]

Wow....thanks for all the input Rob and Wayne. Ok....one thing left out in your reply Rob and that are the differentials but I am assuming that you bundled them with the "gear boxes". Wow...a load of knowledge!

Ok, some history....my 67' CDN2 apparently came from CFB Petawawa....a retired military mechanic (John Power) restored it from 2009 to 2011(I have a ton of pictures from him)...he sold it to a OPP cop in Fort Erie in 2015 and I just purchased it last weekend....the OPP cop only put on 600 miles (1000k) in the two years he owned it. So, I am assuming that Mr. Power greased the axles on assembly as per the pictures it was a frame off restoration.
I plan on doing all of the lubing aside from the kingpin, front & rear axles. Do know of anyone in the Barrie area that may have knowledge and experience of working on jeeps aside from Willy's Acres of whom I have major issues with?

Thanks for the great advice.

les

[rob love]

Differentials, transmission, transfer case are all 80W90 hypoid, preferably GL3 but that is now hard to find. It is said that the GL4 is hard on the brass parts, such as the synchros in the transmission on 2 and 3 gear. Some of the synthetics are rated GL3 such as royal purple, but you may find the synthetics tend to leak a little more.

I see on your other thread some of the parts you are looking for. Hard to believe that it had a frame up restoration but needs

pitman arm, draglink, bellcrank (and hardware), thermostat (which one?) as well as parts for the steering box

I would suggest you check your kingpins.

Easy way to check them is you jack the truck up, remove the wheels, and disconnect the knuckle from the tie rod. Then turn the knuckle thru it's ranges and if it feels rough, then you need the bearings.

If your Jeep has the incredible uncontrollable wobble, it is often a combination of wear in all of the steering system, kingpin bearings included.

The kingpin bearing and cone are pn 11590/11520. If you buy them up here they will easily run you $30 each. Off ebay you should be able to get them for about $10 each. http://www.ebay.com/itm/11590-11520-...sAAOSwstxVUfDD

[Les Kovacs]

Rob....

I am guessing that the safety check will identify any front end issues but I have had the steering wheel turned back & forth by my wife and I see a lot of play in the parts mentioned so yes the full extent of the restoration is dubious. Also, at speed the jeep is not bad but hitting a bump makes the wheels wobble for a split second only. Thanks for the kingpin bearing notice!

Another issue bothers me....rad fluid pukes out of the overflow tube (1/3 to 1/2 cup) when I run it longer than 15-20min and somewhat uphill...although the temp gauge never gets past 120-140 F.....that is why I ask you which thermostat to buy 160 or 180 degrees....I am thinking that it may be partially stuck.

The good stuff....starts quickly, runs smooth with no noises, shift well with well defined gates, straight rust free (MD Juan) tub, frame, floor etc. No oil in antifreeze and no beige milky stuff in oil. Front rear axle more or less leak free, transmission & transfer (not sure which one) leaks about 1/2 teaspoon per drive....may be just drain plug?

Please let me know if time permits your idea as to rad puking and what temp thermostat to buy.

Cheers,

les

[rob love]

If the temp is not overheating, then there is no problem with your thermostat. Most likely it is one of two things. The most likely is that you are simply overfilling the radiator. Unlike modern vehicles, there is no radiator overflow. So if you have overfilled the rad, as it expands, there will be some overflow. It should find it's own level, which will be just above the core of the radiator.

The other is that you could have the beginning of a head gasket leak. Try this: Open and close the rad cap (engine cold) so there is zero pressure in the radiator. Start the jeep cold and run it for 30 seconds to a minute. Shut it off and open the rad cap. If there is pressure there, then you need the engine gasket replaced. You will also observe that the coolant will turn a muddy brown instead of it's usual bright green. Don't bother with the gasket sealing gimmicks....replace the gasket. It only takes a couple hours and you will be good for another 30 years. I had to recently do this on the parade Jeep here in Shilo. Only 2300 original miles, but the coolant got acidic over the years and the gasket failed along with some of the aluminum heater hose fittings.

Wrt what thermostat to use if you did need one, if you are going to use your Jeep in the cooler months and want your heater, then go with a 180. Otherwise, a 160 is fine. Note that these temps are the closing temps of the thermostat. Some of the lesser brands of thermostat will not open until 240, which is fine for modern automobiles with 15 pound pressure systems, but is too high for the 7 lb system of a Jeep. In the old days, a Cdn tire thermostat would give me grief while a Ford motorcraft thermostat worked just fine. In all honesty, I have not replaced a thermostat in a lot of years, so you may be fine with a NAPA or Cdn tire thermostat these days. The thermostat is common to Ford and Dodges from the last 60 years so is easy enough to find.

Back to your steering: The drag link is adjustable, so unless you know you need the pitman arm because the ball has been worn, then you can just remove the cotter pins on each end of the drag link, and tighten up the sockets a bit. Not enough to bind, but enough to remove the play. For the bellcrank, you just need two torrington B188 bearings, and can flip the sleeve over to run the bearings on fresh surfaces.

The safety check may not catch the kingpin bearings. In this modern age of sealed disposable balljoints, most mechanics will not look for the worn bearings of the kingpins. They certainly would not be doing the test I indicated of removing the tires and tie rods, and turning the knuckles.

[Les Kovacs]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for all the valuable info/tidbits....firstly, yes, the rad still pukes fluid but its still well above the core. I have run the engine for about 30kms since I bought it a few days ago and there is still no oil droplets in the rad fluid or malted milk fluid around the inside of the oil filler or on the dip stick. The temp gauge always reads about 120-140 and no more....is this normal?....or do you think its busted? I will test as per your suggestion by running for 1 min and then cracking open the rad cap and looking for pressure.

As per the drag link....I did notice that the ends have cross marks as if they can be adjusted. I Also noticed that the drag link has a repair kit on it already. It steers OK but again, if I hit a pothole at about 20-30 kms the steering wheel shakes for a split second then settles down.

Canadian tire has only 80-90 gear oil al GL4 or 5..cannot find GL 3....had to top up the front & rear diffs as they were well below filler lip. Have not look at the trans or transfer yet but they are leaking....hopefully its only at the drain plugs. Oil pan gasket leaked....I put a socket to it....all the bolts were only finger tight....tightened to about 10-20 ft. lbs....appears to have stopped leak.

I sincerely thank you for all the info.....if you do not mind, I would love to use you as a resource while trying to make a reliable runner out of the jeep.

PS...If Shilo is the armpit of the world...then Bangui (Central African Republic) is the toilet of the world.

Regards,

les

[rob love]

The parade Jeep I worked on did not have any water in the oil. Remember that you have 120 psi in a cylinder, and only 7 pounds in a radiator, so if the head gasket leak is marginal, it may not show in the oil.

Yes, GL3 is hard to find. But it is out there.

Always happy to share my opinions, even when they are not asked for.

[David Herbert]

Any gear oil with 'EP' in its designation, which includes GL4 &5 is rather more than 'hard on yellow metal' components. The EP additives get into the molecular structure of the surface of the component and prizes it apart on a microscopic level. A bit like ivy growing on a stone wall pulls the mortar out and eventually the wall crumbles. The result of this is that any wearing surface falls apart VERY quickly. I have seen 1mm wear in 1 hour of use on a not terribly loaded plain bronze bearing because of this. This is a serious problem if you get it wrong !

There are plenty of non-automotive uses for non EP gear oils (such as worm reduction gearboxes on electric motors on industrial machinery) so cast your net a bit wider than the local auto parts outlet. What you need is out there.

With regard to the viscosity of engine oil, check out the owners manual of your modern car, which I suggest should have more specific needs than a 50 year old MV. You will see that there is a huge range of acceptable grades of oil for a particular climate (more so in the UK than the more extreme summer/winter variation in Canada) so within limits you do have some latitude. Synthetic oil is much more resistant to breakdown than mineral oils but that is not a great advantage to MVs as you probably are not trying to get 16000miles between oil changes (I hope).

David

[David Dunlop]

Just a thought on the wheel wobble. Check that the wheels are all balanced and don't assume that the presence of any weights on them means they are. Paved roads can wear older ND tyres rather more quickly than one might expect.

David

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by rob love

...

... It only takes a couple hours and you will be good for another 30 years. I had to recently do this on the parade Jeep here in Shilo. Only 2300 original miles, but the coolant got acidic over the years and the gasket failed along with some of the aluminum heater hose fittings. ...

...

Apparently there is another 1953 1/4-ton ceremonial Jeep in 25 CFSD Longue Pointe. Out of curiosity, what is the ERN and CFR of Shilo's? It would be interesting to see whether there are any others in the system.

[rob love]

It is held as an artifact rather than a CFR'd piece of equipment. ERN forany CDN3 will be the same, it is the ECC that will be different. There was a specific ECC for the ceremonial/VIP trucks.

Les: Drain your rad so you are just slightly above the rad core, then take it for a drive and see if it is puking a/f. You may have nothing more than a overfilled radiator.

[Les Kovacs]

Thanks to all for your valuable input!

1. To Rob....the jeep passed inspection this AM and I got plated! It was a real crock....they never even took any wheels off to check for brake shoe wear!

2. I will have the front wheel balanced next week.

3. To Rob.....I tried the rad test.....started engine and ran for 1 min....appears to be no pressure when rad cover taken off.

4. Right now the rad fluid is very bright green and about 2 inches above the core.....however, the rad appears to have stopped puking fluid onto the front axle....for now!

6. Rad temp as per gauge goes to about 130-140 after 20 min drive with 2 aboard...is this a normal range?

7. As per #6.....the temp gauge get slightly fogged up in the center after about 3-5min.....is this normal?

8. Changed both diff fluids with 80W90 Motomaster GL4-5.....rear diff fluid was so discoloured (malted milk) that it may have ingested H2O at one time or another. I will change rear fluid in another 1-2 weeks.

Rob....please respond to #6 if time permits.....not sure what temp should be
when run for 20 min.

Still looking for trans oil.....I hear that Redline makes a 75W-90 that does not affect "yellow metals"

Regards for now,

les

[maple_leaf_eh]

If your HMV passed one inspection, don't let the licence lapse. It will only get harder from here forward.

[rob love]

130-140 is a little low, normal would be in the 160 to 180 range. Normally, if the jeep had the heater, it should have had a 180 thermostat, but you don't know what others have put in there for a thermostat over it's decades of civilian service. Remember the gauge and sending unit are likely almost 50 years old, so it would not be inconceivable it could be out 30° or so. The moisture in the gauge is not ideal, since they were a sealed unit. You can either live with that or replace it. I suppose you could run the Jeep and check the engine temp at the upper core of the rad with a digital thermometer of some kind.

It sounds to me like your radiator may have been simply overfull. The Jeep will find it's own level.

Re the rear fluid, another good indicator that you need to check the rear bearings. If the Jeep was deep enough to ingest water into the diff, then it was deep enough to contaminate the rear wheel bearings.

[Les Kovacs]

Hi Rob....I have driven the jeep only for 10-15min intervals and then slowly with no high speed and with only 1 person aboard.....maybe 130-140 is correct but I doubt it as it is more than likely the original thermostat.

Both axels have now been drained and refilled with motomaster 80w-90 Gl4-5.

I have found the 1/4 inch plugs at the rear wheels....the overflow plug works-plungers move freely....all I need to is buy 1/4 in zerks from CT.

I have also purchased 3 liters of Redline 75w-90 MT-90 trans oil to replace oil in trans & transfer case....this oil is GL1, 2 & 3 rated....its a full synthetic so I hope it does not puke out too much at $21 CDN a bottle.

Again, thanks for all the tidbits.....they are priceless.....If you have anymore maintenance items for this novice M38A1 owner...please do not hesitate.

Cheers,

les

[rob love]

The Cdn Army had those two zerk fittings removed as they did not properly grease the rear wheel bearings. As well, if you over-do pumping grease into there, it has to go somewhere. I suppose putting grease into there is better than nothing, but ideally you remove the axles, clean and inspect the bearings, I go with new inner and outer axle seals (since they are fairly cheap) and set the axle preload/endplay at the same time. Then you can drive with confidence. But it is a big job for a novice.

[Les Kovacs]

Hi Rob.....I have another issue....I have downloaded two M38A1 Spec sheets (one US military and the other from Kaiser) from the internet..... they both state that the front/rear axle oil capacity is 2.5 qts or 2.4 liters......however, the 1967 M38A1 CDN2 Canadian DOD manual that came with the jeep states that the front/rear axle capacity is both 1.0 qts or about 1.0 liters.....which one is correct?

Thanks,

les

[rob love]

Well you made me have to stand up and reach onto the book shelf over the computer.

My operator manual shows 1 quart. That will be imperial so bigger than a US quart or a liter.

Quite frankly, fill the differential until it is one knuckle below the filler hole. Same goes for transmission and transfer case. If you reach your finger into the hole and bend the first digit down, it should just be picking up the oil. Also, service the little breather valve on top of the diffs. You simply give it a couple twists to dislodge any dirt that has attached itself to the oil vapour and can plug up the valve.

[Les Kovacs]

Rob....sorry for making you reach over the computer for the manual.....but clearly, the CDN manual states 1.0 quart for both diffs and both of the US spec docs that I have clearly show 2.5 quarts per axle....I will go with 1 quart plus and then bend finger one knuckle and touch oil.

I am now working on transmission.....both the CDN & US manuals for the 67 M38A1 show 1.0 quart of oil.....I drained out 1.6 liters....maybe that is why it was rust proofing the frame with its leaking.

Thanks....

les

[rob love]

There are several reasons why the transmission will help rustproof (besides worn seals/yokes and oil leaking through the splines of the shaft and by the pinion nut). One is that there is no seal between the transmission and the transfer case, so if you go up or down a very steep incline you actually transfer oil from one gearbox to another. There is a sealed bearing that can be installed to prevent this, but in the end the oil cant go any higher than the balls of the bearing.

Second is that the bolts between the transmission and transfer case can work loose, then leak oil between the two boxes.

Last, the front seal on the transmission leading to the clutch bellhousing is merely a felt seal rather than a positive rubber lip seal, so it will always seep a little.

But if you think a Jeep is at all bad, go buy any year Chevrolet......

[John Genereux]

Hello to Terry Warmer and Rob Love. I work at 202 workshop in Montreal and have seen and driven the Ceremonial M38 (not very far, just around inside one of our shops). The Jeep actually has CFR plates on it: 32252. I will try to upload 2 pics of it tonight.

[rob love]

Hi John
When I look at the CFR on the EDR viewer, it shows as having been disposed of back in 1982, so I would suggest that it has been retained in a semi-official capacity. The one here in Shilo is held as a museum artifact, but is still called out for military parades on base as well as transporting the base commander (and Juno, the army mascot) during other events.

Neat to see that your vehicles CFR has not been overwritten, and that the Jeep had managed to remain CFR'd from 1953 right until 1982.

The EDR viewer shows it as a 1953 Ford M38. Is the jeep a flat fendered M38 or a M38A1CDN? The serial number given in the EDR almost makes it look like it's a M38A1, as does the year of the CFR. That said, there were a lot of errors transcribed into the computer system from back then. Quite frankly, they may not have been as picky as a collector.

[John Genereux]

Hi Rob,

Here are the pics that I took with my phone:






According to the data plate, it is an M38A1CDN. I was wondering, were these parade jeeps made specifically at the factory or locally made by craftsmen according to a set of mod instructions?

Cheers!

[rob love]

I think I read about that one in an old EME digest. Wasn't it made for the Queens visit?

If you are interested in some of the issue front turn signals for the Jeep, shoot me an email on the DND intranet system.

The Jeeps were not factory. There was one originally made, and 202 later made a couple out of PCC'd accident Jeeps. I suspect some of the Cdn3 Jeeps (70-71 contract years) were specially modified into Ceremonial Jeeps when they were new. The one in Shilo was from Ottawa, and by what I coudl see on it's unit history, had never left Ottawa. The fitments (things like heater hoses and even the hose clamps) all appeared to be originals to the Jeep from the factory.

[Les Kovacs]

Hi Rob....thanks for the trans/transfer case leak info....again, I changed fluids out of both and spend a considerable amount of time wiping the trans/transfer to see where the leak was coming from....I will take 2-3 drives then look underneath.

I also drove home yesterday about 5-6kms in 32 C temp....lots up hill, got home and waited about 2 min....squeezed upper rad hose....not pressured so I opened up the cap and put a thermometer into the hot fluid.....got about 155 F temp...gauge on dash never went beyond 130-140F.

Its also still puking rad fluid but its still about 2-3 inches above the core....or about 1-2 inches from the top.

PS....is it difficult to replace the oil pan gasket?

Cheers,

les

[Les Kovacs]

I am trying to stop all oil leaks & weeps from the engine on 67 CDN2.
I have a slow oil weep from a screw and rubber gasket on the driver side engine block where a fuel line goes into a fitting with a screw & nut that appears to screw into the exhaust valve cover....can I just keep tightening it until it stops weeping oil? What is this fitting for?

Thanks,

les

[rob love]

Sounds like you are talking about the little cover for the PCV system. You can try and tighten it a little more, but I suspect with the age of the gaskets it might be time to change them. Go with Felpro...they often have the foam rubber gaskets which will seal better than the cork, but then again we have successfully used cork for the lat century with great success.

Oil pan gasket is about the simplest oil pan you will ever change. It is one piece of cork...no rubber crank seals involved. Shouldn't take more than 45 minutes on a slow day.