Neophyte needs wisdom re: 25 pounder gun refurb

[Dan Johnston]

Hello, folks.

I was attending a shindig for my employer and one of the guest speakers was the CO of the local reserve arty outfit. We got talking, found some common ground, and the next thing I knew I was a guest at his office looking at this old lady:





Yep, a 25 pounder, 1943 Canadian production, missing a few bits but fireable.

Came home, warmed up the interwebs, sent a PM to a fellow on Canadiangunnutz to ask advice. He put me on to Mr. Rob Love who has been both a gentleman and entirely invaluable in my efforts to find resources to get her back on her feet. It was Rob sent me here. And yep, I've read the lengthy and enormously useful thread posted by Private_collector. Excellent stuff, and very reassuring.

Thanks to Rob for getting me here, and to the rest of you for your contributions to that thread.

So, the gun:



She's largely in one piece. The first thing that jumps out is that cut down gun shield. She was last used as a funeral gun, carrying old artillerymen to their graves, doubtless with dignity and appropriate respect. The platform was laid atop the cut down shield and then attached to brackets welded at the muzzle and the breech. The brackets have been removed, but the scars remain:







The shield still has a number of useful brackets and such attached. We'll be salvaging those.





At some point in her life, someone saw fit to sandblast her and then paint her green. The sandblasting did the wee plaques and notices no end of harm...





(I hope there's a source for replacements) and that green paint went everywhere.

[Dan Johnston]

Note the traverse equipment is now brass and green paint:



Most of the markings are still very clear:











The bore rates NRA train tunnel:



"Light frosting in the grooves, should clean up well..."

Breech mechanism is functional and feels solid to my untutored hand.



Tires are solid - holding air and appear NOS - they still have the wee moulding hairs on 'em.



So here I am, utterly new at arty or projects of this size, and ignorant in the ways of Very Large Guns. Step one in such situations is to RTFM. Alas, I can't find one. Been all over the internet, and come up empty. The IWM will run me a copy of the one they have for about a hundred Canadian bucks, and make no guarantees of quality. If any of you know of one, please let me know.

There's an interesting political/financial angle on this job. The gun is currently the property of the Friends of the Regiment Society and NOT National Defence. I'm told that this means there can be ZERO spillover in resources between ND and the organization that owns the gun. No parts can change hands, no transport resource can be employed, no labour on government time can be used. The RCA museum may have a ton of spare bits, but we can't access any of it. I understand this and am very OK with playing within the rules outlined by necessity, but it does make the job harder.

Things we need right now:
- sight mount
- associated sights
- uncut gun shield
- big-ol' round firing platform
- various bins, boxes, bags, ranging sticks, shovels and accoutrements to hang off the multitude of brackets, webbing, and such.
- a pull through about the diameter of my Popeye-like forearm.

I've done some internet nosing around. There's that outfit in the UK has the sight mount, but won't ship overseas. There's that Australian source for drag ropes. But that still leaves a lot of bits and bobs. I want that firing platform more than my next breath, and every time I look at that cut shield I die a little inside. If any of you have blueprints that would allow us to make a replica shield here, that'd be grand. The Society has corporate connections in oilfield manufacturing, and some clever bastard with an equally clever machine could doubtless make us a fresh shield with the holes in the right places.

Once that's done, I have to figure out how to do big ol' rivets...

Thank you for the benefit of your wisdom, folks.

Dan

[David Dunlop]

Interesting project, Dan.

With regards to the shield, if you can get access to an original, might it not be easier to just clone the missing upper section and have it grafted onto what you have? That way might be more cost effective and enable you to preserve the vast majority of the original at the same time.

David

[maple_leaf_eh]

Two things for you - it has been stored indoors, and the Chain of Command is supportive.

Two bad things for you - the Chain of Command can't support you, and some SOB who ought to have known better welded over the breech markings. (Some people!)

Gunner Mike in Kars, On has a ploughshares and swords museum. He is active with 30th Fd Arty's collection. There are more historic guns in his lines than active guns in the CO's.

[Marc van Aalderen]

Hi Dan,

You might want to have a look at this website for all your manual needs. Rob does very good reprints at a good price too. Look here: http://www.robvanmeel.nl/

Good luck on your project!

[James P]

Hi Dan
Nice looking project. I would check (as others have noted about restoring the shield back to its correct shape and size. Others can throw in about welding required of armour to mild steel. The goal should be to preserve as much "original" as possible. Also sad someone did not removed the brass tags prior to sand blasting, that really did a number on them. Lastly get that gun punched and de-crapified, it hurts the eyes just looking down that tubes pictures.
James

[Dennis Cardy]

Very nice what you are doing..keep up the good work.

Hopefully these shots...across from the RCMP station at White Rock BC….
may be helpful to you re. the original armour shield shape…
and the cast ID plates…..Sandblasting sure did a number on them.

The weird green colour is due partly to camera response of a typical overcast day here on the Coast…and badly faded paint of unknown origin.

[Dennis Cardy]

This is what the ID plates looked like on the White Rock memorial gun

[Dennis Cardy]

Armour shield shape comparison between original and the challenge you are facing..

[Dennis Cardy]

Comparison shot of White Rock CofG markings

[Dennis Cardy]

Breech layout..comparison

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Dan Johnston

The first thing that jumps out is that cut down gun shield. She was last used as a funeral gun, carrying old artillerymen to their graves, doubtless with dignity and appropriate respect. The platform was laid atop the cut down shield and then attached to brackets welded at the muzzle and the breech. The brackets have been removed, but the scars remain.

Here is a photo of a Canadian 25-pdr being used as a funeral gun. The month is September 1952 and the location is Chatham Barracks in Hanover, Germany. The funeral was for a RCEME officer killed in an auto accident. I've cropped the detail of the gun from a larger picture. Not very good for detail, but it will give you an idea of how it looked in service.

Cheers,
Dan.

funeral crop.jpg

[rob love]

I have found two patterns of funeral trays. The first is a high tray, which would be used with the full size shields. I suspect this may have been used when the guns were still in service.

The second tray (and I see more of these ones) require the shield be cut down.

There has been discussion in the artillery world about modifying and pre-positioning more of the funeral guns across the country. Apparently, for the funeral of Corporal Nathan Cirillo, the cost for the last minute movement of the funeral gun was fairly substantial.

[Barry Churcher]

Dan, I have a firing platform if you are interested but we are a long way apart.
Barry

[Dan Johnston]

Thanks for that, Dan. A sad but very necessary duty.

Rob, if possible, we'd like to keep ours "convertible" for that job. Something to consider going forward. Our goal is to provide service to the regiment and however many other people that we can.

Barry, PM sent. Thanks very much.

Dan

[Dan Johnston]

It's time we considered paint.

What recommendations do you all have for something VERY durable?