#1
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Intended Carrier recovery, wisdom sought
Dear All,
I have been voluntold to recover this carrier from its current location into temporary storage on behalf of the owners. As it is a WW2 item, of which I am not greatly familiar I would be grateful if others could comment on the pitfalls of the intended plan. The vehicle is as pictured. By the time I get there next week she will likely be frozen to the ground. My plan is to:-
R Last edited by Hanno Spoelstra; 19-12-11 at 22:24. Reason: formatting |
#2
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If the engine and transmission is seized, as is common on the carriers left open to the elements, then bring the wrench and a hammer to remove the rear axle shafts before trying to remove it.
Those tracks appear well into the ground. That could spell trouble if the ground is well frozen and the track is tight. I have heard of track being broken being pulled in frozen ground. The tiger torch will be a slow process but I guess it's better than waiting until spring. |
#3
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Quite the challenge....
If the weather stays mild as forecasted the frost in the ground will not be very deep......
I would suggest..... if you can manoeuvre around the UC to try tugging at 90 degrees to the track...... front corner than rear corner....repeat on the opposite side......maybe pulling/tugging back and forth.....once loose you are home free. The propane tiger torch will be slow and chances of the rubber wheels burning before thawing is a good possibility. As suggested you will no doubt have to remove the rear axles to rool free. If it was my property I would pour old engine oil on the bottom section of the tracks for ...alledgedly lubrication purposes......... but really to soak into the ground if the weather thaws enough and the oil would keep the soil from freezing again too hard..... old junk yard trick. Bob
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Bob Carriere....B.T.B C15a Cab 11 Hammond, Ontario Canada |
#4
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Howdy Robin-
if it's near here I'll givwe you a hand.
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Charles Fitton Maryhill On., Canada too many carriers too many rovers not enough time. (and now a BSA...) (and now a Triumph TRW...) |
#5
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Blimey,
I have had many private messages and emails and a few wise posts! I know not nor do I honestly care which variety of the carrier it is, way beyond my interest. It is a burden to me that I have to deal with as part of the give and take of work and what I get afforded to me through work. It is going to screw a whole day by the time I kit up, drive down, wrestle with, load up, chain down and drive back and solo unload at home base. When you consider I have heated shop space and heavy equipment and covered storage space for my own endeavours it really ain't that bad We are doing the unit a favour by holding it in safe keeping until they can decide whether to scrap it or restore it. Honestly I wont let them scrap it kids , a number of you have already expressed an interest. Charlie do you have a domestic approval chitty to be involved? The gig is happening Wednesday 28th December at 1130 am in Cornwall if anyone wants to drop by and lend a hand. I drink a large Tims double cupped FYI regards R |
#6
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Save it if you can.....
If the side sloped armor is original you have an early scout model...... certainly worth saving. Hope the weather will be mild and you can move it free easily.
Remember that the back field at the abrn is always available for storage for anyone who is short of space. Bob
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Bob Carriere....B.T.B C15a Cab 11 Hammond, Ontario Canada |
#7
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I don't think it's a Bren certainly not a scout, just the way the universal armour has been cut, IMHO. Worth saving never the less.
Ben |
#8
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Bob it a Universal MkII*, all cut about.
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Bluebell Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991 Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6. Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6 Jeep Mb #135668 So many questions.... |
#9
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An Adventure
Hi Robin - I love doing what you are about to do. A real adventure, the use of crisis management initiative, the victory and the stories around the bbq later on. Plus you are helping save another Carrier, an important part of history. Enjoy the recovery, get down and get dirty.
Bob
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Chevrolet Blitz Half-Track Replica - Finished and Running Ford F15 - unrestored Ford F15A X 2 - unrestored Website owner - salesmanbob.com |
#10
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Recovery
Robin, make sure you get lots of photos of the recovery to share with the MLU team.
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#11
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Rafting & Snow road Carrier Recovery
Quote:
Your description reminded me of some great photos and descriptions of two carrier recoveries posted on MLU. The first was one where someone in Australia built a raft and floated a carrier across the Murray River. The other one was in Canada where people had tried for two or three snow seasons to liberate a carrier when there was an ice road available. Does anyone know what has happened to these carriers since they were retrieved? Can anyone recall the links to these great stories for me so I can follow them again? It would be much appreciated. Kind Regards Lionel
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1940 Chevrolet MCP with Holden Built Cab (30 CWT). 1935 REO Speed Wagon. 1963 Series 2A Army Ambulance ARN 112-211 Series III ex-Military Land Rovers x 2 |
#12
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Well, the forecast was not good as of lunchtime today so I went I to work to kit up for the retrieval.
Mostly loaded in this box (worth looking at the box for the eagle eyed ones) and some items in truck cab are the tools and kit I am taking. 4 sets of rated chains and turnbuckles for securing load 2x 4 ton web straps for recovery 4x 2 ton shackles for securement 5 ton shackle assortment of 3500lbs ratchet straps long and short pry bar CVRT track pin kit ball pein hammer, various pliers + vice grips punches drifts and chisels propane torch, small grinder and spare disks and extension cord (power is nearby) safety glasses sledge hammer 5 ft pry bar, 2 ft pry bar hi lift jack blocking, assorted chainsaw and chainsaw kit 3 changes of clothing copious quantities of gloves 1 ton dually diesel flatbed trailer cell phone corporate credit card Forecast has the mercury dropping overnight with 15 cm of snow by lunchtime, oh joy. R |
#13
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Thats a good kit list, you are just missing one very important item ! The brew kit , got to have tea !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Shaun Hindle Morris C8 Ford GPW jeep 1945 Morris 1000 (ex mil) SAS LSV Harley Davidson MT 350 motor cycle Universal carrier MK 1*1943 Ronson (under restoration) Universal carrier MK 2* 1944 (Puddle Jumper HSK 345) Ferret MK 1/1 1956 Ferret MK 2/4 1958 CVR(T) Scorpion 432 MK2 Daimler MK1 armoured car 1943 (winner best wheeled armour W&P show 2011) Daimler Dingo MK2 1944 (awaiting restoration, aquired 11/12/2011) Fordson WOT 3 D 1940 (awaiting restoration ) |
#14
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Shaun,
as an ex pat Brit I am well aware of the benefits and the traditions of a "brew up" in the British Military and the ubiquitous boiling vessels in military vehicles (of which we have a few, bvs and vehicles!) but I have adopted the "local" brew made by Tim Hortons, the double double coffee. I would have to say that I think that now I have lived over half my life here in Canada that I have drunk more Tim's coffees than I have hot dinners. Our military marches on them, just about. To this end a mate, James, has nominated himself as coffee wallah for the day. Its now 530am and the snow has started. R |
#15
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A coffee wallah huh? I don't know how I'm suppose to take that. LOL.
But don't worry, a double double in a double cup is on its way as requested. I'll be bringing a camera as well to record the event. Unfortunately the snow has started flying!
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1967 M715 1968 M715 1969 M725 |
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Well,
The roads were not great with the left lane of the 401 snow covered at Gananoque when I got on but by Prescott it cleared up a bit. Arrived in Cornwall and the city streets were snow covered, it was minus 8 degrees c at this time and the wnd was blowing fairly hard. Once at the unit the first challenge was to open the yard gate as the padlock was frozen so out with the small propane torch to thaw that out. The officer in charge of the Armoury met me and we went to the back yard and he started an LSVW to get it out of the way. While we were waiting for the tilt n load tow truck we used some straps and shackles and a rental forklift (awaiting pick up from a previous unit event) to gently lift the front of the carrier, resistance was futile and the vehicle lifted out of the ground bringing with it a great big lump of frozen ground under the tracks on both sides. A few minutes later the tow truck arrived and moments after that James and his mate John arrived with a coffee for me! What fine service. For Shaun in the UK we present a picture of the carrier in motion an myself in suitably gruby winter work wear! R |
#17
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The tracks did move and the vehicle did roll up to a point but then stopped, I think the extra frozen mud jammed the track under the shroud which is what happened.
Anyway the pulling continued and the carrier slid up the deck and we were at a point that the deck could be lowered. At this point I was thanking the good lord for not having to get down and dirty and split track in the cold, that was something I did not want to do. Next we lined up our trailer and the tow truck to do the cross decking operation. R |
#18
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We had two options as to how to cross deck, we could place a pulley block in the centre of our trailer secured by a chain and pass the winch cable underneath and back to the carrier but instead elected to slide the tow truck deck over our trailer as far as it would go and cross chain the carrier to our trailer and slide the deck forward out from underneath the carrier.
We did this slide operation twice at least and got the carrier onto the trailer, notice the clods of frozen ground which we would have to address. R |
#19
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So, being as how i'm getting older, and hopefully smarter, we suggested to the unit officer that he allow us to back our truck and trailer inside the Armoury and do the clean up and tie down in the warm, as any idiot can be uncomfortable!
This was one the better moves of the day, I do have to say. We used the forklift and lifted each side in turn and flailed the lumps from the track and cleaned the deck of the trailer as we went. I did not want any crud flying off through someones windshield as I went down the highway. R Last edited by Robin Craig; 29-12-11 at 15:03. |
#20
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Picture is worth a thousand words
Robin
I have been following the thread with great interest. It is always good to see how recoveries are made. I have been on a few recoveries of WW2 Blitz trucks lately and love the the whole thing. Thanks for posting the photos it gives us all a lesson on what we can do. Cheers Tony
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Anthony (Tony) VAN RHODA. Strathalbyn. South Australia |
#21
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As I am not a Carrier expert, James kindly took all of these photos, as someone else had to work, snapped some detail pictures for those of you who are just dying to see what this vehicle is and has.
R |
#22
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I have to split them up because of the forum protocols on pictures
R |
#23
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And some more
R |
#24
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And finally, the drive home to "paradise island".
These pictures are from my phone, crude and dark but show a bit more detail. I do have to say that I would have liked to get the carrier a bit further forward on the trailer for weight distribution between the tuck and trailer. The roads were quite icy around Brockville and I could have used a bit more on the truck to give better steering. I have done a number of Carrier moves, usually with a runner unlike this stone. I like cross chaining with binders on each chain and that is what works for me and the load was very happy and did not slop on the track / road wheels at all. The unload will happen after the new year, we will use a 8 ton excavator and a full size tractor to lower it to the ground over the ramps, one acting as the tug the other as the brake. As i'm on my holidays it will just have to wait as that was one full day crucified. Hope you all enjoyed it. My thanks once again to James Dennis for taking the pictures and supplying the coffee. R Last edited by Robin Craig; 29-12-11 at 15:05. |
#25
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I guess I should ask this here, I was wondering as I drove what kind of value would anyone say this is worth?
I know it is not for sale, as the unit will eventually do something, but I'm just curious as to what people think it's value would be if it came up on the open market in this condition. R |
#26
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fair play to you robin, drinking coffee and recovering a carrier is a good way to spend a day.
as to value i would say £7k was a fair price for it. merry xmas and a happy new year rick
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_______________________ 1941 mk1 mortar Carrier 1941 Mk1* Carrier 1942 Mk1* Carrier 1943 T16 Carrier 1945 Mk3 Dingo 1941 Mk3 Covenanter 1941 Mk4 Churchill AVRE (now sold) 1944 Mk6 Cromwell (now sold) 1952 Mk3 Centurion 1952 ARV Centurion 1952 ARV Centurion 1953 Mk3 Centurion (breaking) |
#27
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its worth what folk are willing to pay for it....carriers have been purchased for as little as £500 GBP. if that carrier was on UK soil you would expect to pay no less than £7000 GBP in its current untouched condition and no more than say £12000. restored i have seen carriers sell for 40.000euro but as with these things provenance and originality are everything.........John Bizzal has sold some lovely carriers (uncut) for $9000 US in the past
condition as you say is a biggie... drive line and controls are a main one.... armour etc can be re made but to get it right is both difficult and expensive... the more complete it is with original or issued kit, the more its worth
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is mos redintegro __5th Div___46th Div__ 1942 Ford Universal Carrier No.3 MkI* Lower Hull No. 10131 War Department CT54508 (SOLD) 1944 Ford Universal Carrier MkII* (under restoration). 1944 Morris C8 radio body (under restoration). |
#28
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Seems to me that the going price on an uncut carrier hull here in Canada has been around 10K lately. Search the forum here and you will see that in the past year a couple have sold and or been offered near this price. I would say the one you have there Robin would be something less than that considering the extensive damage to the armour.
Guys in Europe seem willing to pay a lot higher dollar than the cheapos here.
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3RD Echelon Wksp 1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC 1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC 1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army 1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR 1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer 1943 Converto Airborne Trailer 1983 M1009 CUCV RT-524, PRC-77s, and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and....... OMVA, MVPA, G503, Steel Soldiers |
#29
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Well done Robin, what a nice write up as well. Being British Army i will stick to TEA, now you have transfered to the colonies you are with in your rights to drink "Coffee". Its seems to have done the job and stopped you from freezing is some nasty weather. Good effort !!!!
Quote:
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Shaun Hindle Morris C8 Ford GPW jeep 1945 Morris 1000 (ex mil) SAS LSV Harley Davidson MT 350 motor cycle Universal carrier MK 1*1943 Ronson (under restoration) Universal carrier MK 2* 1944 (Puddle Jumper HSK 345) Ferret MK 1/1 1956 Ferret MK 2/4 1958 CVR(T) Scorpion 432 MK2 Daimler MK1 armoured car 1943 (winner best wheeled armour W&P show 2011) Daimler Dingo MK2 1944 (awaiting restoration, aquired 11/12/2011) Fordson WOT 3 D 1940 (awaiting restoration ) |
#30
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i still say £7k is about right for a very complete carrier, the hull is easy to sort out the hard part is getting all the other bits together. as to shipping, i imported a carrier from the states last year for under £3k most of which was the cost of the 20ft container. import duty was only £200 as it's a classic vehicle but i've got enough rust to be getting on with so this ones not for me. (i reckon kevin could hide another one from his wife)
rick
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_______________________ 1941 mk1 mortar Carrier 1941 Mk1* Carrier 1942 Mk1* Carrier 1943 T16 Carrier 1945 Mk3 Dingo 1941 Mk3 Covenanter 1941 Mk4 Churchill AVRE (now sold) 1944 Mk6 Cromwell (now sold) 1952 Mk3 Centurion 1952 ARV Centurion 1952 ARV Centurion 1953 Mk3 Centurion (breaking) |
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